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Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 16558 times)

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I will simply post the link to the post I already made that answered this query.

Still waiting for you to provide something - anything that demonstrates the magisterium being wrong, or admit that there is no such thing because it is an impossibility - except within the NO church.

If you had any faith, you would then understand, as V1 states, that whatever is contained in the magisterium is infallible. V1 explicitly include the Solemn, Universal and Ordinary Magisterium - but although it is clearly and explicitly written that way, you continue to reject it.  

You will never find "Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium", because what you are looking for does not now, and never has existed.....but keep on looking I guess.
Hiding behind terminology once again. I don't care that you have no idea what the distinction between the non-Universal and Universal Ordinary Magisterium is. A rose by any other name is just as sweet, the inherent attributes of something are not altered by the names you call them. We both recognise and agree that teachings of the Pope, or the Pope and Bishops, which are not what the Church has always taught, are not infallible. Doesn't matter what you call those teachings - doesn't change the fact you contradicted yourself. 

You have stated:
(1) That the Church has teachings that are falilble and require varying degrees of religious assent
and
(2) That the Church's teachings = the Magisterium = The Body of Christ and are therefore all infallible.

Two contradictory statements. Either all the teachings are infallible or they are not, they can't both all be infallible and yet some be fallible. Some is a subset of all.

Previous Councils were infallible and de fide, Vatican II, according to the Popes themselves, was deliberately not de fide but pastoral.

The holy Faith teaches us there are (1) Trinitarian Dogmas, (2) Eucharistic Dogmas, (3) Marian Dogmas, (4) Moral Dogmas, and then (5) other teachings related to pastoral issues. Vatican II didn't deny any of the first 4. It was on the 5th that mistakes were made. Ecuмenism is not and cannot ever be dogma, it is not even defined as one. It is only a prudential practice, and mistakes can certainly be made there. The only acceptable way for ecuмenism to be done would be to bring Protestants et al back to the Church.

"There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church's infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility."  -Pope Paul VI, Weekly General Audience, 12 January 1966
"Differing from other Councils, this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral." -Pope Paul VI, General Audience, 6 August 1975
"The Second Vatican Council solemnly declared in its Constitution on the Church that all the teachings of the Council are in full continuity with the teachings of former councils. Moreover, let us not forget that the canons of the Council of Trent and of Vatican I are de fide, whereas none of the decrees of Vatican II are de fide;The Second Vatican Council was pastoral in nature. Cardinal Felici rightly stated that the Credo solemnly proclaimed by Pope Paul VI at the end of the Year of Faith is from a dogmatic point of view much more important than the entire Second Vatican Council. Thus, those who want to interpret certain passages in the docuмents of Vatican II as if they implicitly contradicted definitions of Vatican I or the Council of Trent should realize that even if their interpretation were right, the canons of the former councils would overrule these allegedly contradictory passages of Vatican II, because the former are de fide, the latter not." -Dietrich Von Hildebrand
"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular Council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest."  -Cardinal Ratzinger (Now Pope Benedict XVI), address to the Chilean Bishops, 13 July 1988, Santiago Chile http://catholicismhastheanswer.com/vatican-ii-must-be-clarified/


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Hiding behind terminology once again. I don't care that you have no idea what the distinction between the non-Universal and Universal Ordinary Magisterium is. A rose by any other name is just as sweet, the inherent attributes of something are not altered by the names you call them. We both recognise and agree that teachings of the Pope, or the Pope and Bishops, which are not what the Church has always taught, are not infallible. Doesn't matter what you call those teachings - doesn't change the fact you contradicted yourself.

You have stated:
(1) That the Church has teachings that are falilble and require varying degrees of religious assent
and
(2) That the Church's teachings = the Magisterium = The Body of Christ and are therefore all infallible.

Two contradictory statements. Either all the teachings are infallible or they are not, they can't both all be infallible and yet some be fallible. Some is a subset of all.
We can end this discussion if your going to continually *not* read what I post. I leave it up to you.

1) I did not say that - try to actually read what I said, I said that YOU "confuse the infallibility of the magisterium with differing degrees of religious assent we owe to teachings that are not infallibly defined. Which is probably the main reason why no one is able to post any example of the magisterium being wrong."

Because the magisterium is always infallible, there is no error within the magisterium, for example: we are bound under pain of mortal sin to her defined dogmas, whereas we are not bound under pain of mortal sin to the traditional belief  that St. John the Baptist was born (not conceived) free of Original Sin upon the visitation/salutation of Our Blessed Mother to St. Elizabeth re: Luke 1:44.

Both teachings are infallibly truth, both are contained in the Church's Magisterium, but there are different degrees of religious ascent owed to each teaching. In one case we are bound to believe, in the other case we are not bound to believe, but just because in the latter case we are not bound to believe it does not mean the teaching is wrong. Understand?

And by now you should already admit that it is an impossibility that the "Magisterium can be wrong, but not so wrong that "it can't lead you into heresy or rejection of the faith".

Will you admit it now?

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Quote
You have stated:
(1) That the Church has teachings that are falilble and require varying degrees of religious assent
and
(2) That the Church's teachings = the Magisterium = The Body of Christ and are therefore all infallible.
Gentlemen,
The more I read about the history and theology of the magisterium, the more I realize that it is super complex.  The idea of the Magisterium itself is simple and most people readily understand it, including both of you.  But, if you study the history of it, you'll realize that theologians over the last few centuries, (especially after V1) have changed, added and refined many of the definitions/labels of the terms.  So it's very difficult to discuss this topic unless you define terms in the beginning.  For example, I think I read somewhere that the Magisterium used to only refer to 1) extraordinary definitions and 2) authoritative ordinary & universal teachings.  In other words, there was no such thing as the "ordinary, fallible" magisterium.  This makes sense to me, because in prior centuries, when popes spoke of the magisterium, they were obviously speaking of authoritative, clear-cut teachings.  They were NOT talking about the "ordinary, fallible" level, where the pope gives a sermon on sundays or he gives a speech at a religious conference.

Fast forward to the 1800s and the 1900s and theologians starting including ALL papal writings, sermons and lower-level synods, meetings, etc into the definition of the "ordinary/fallible" magisterium.  Why they did this, I don't know.  But there has been MUCH that has changed, definitionally, between the 1600s and now on this topic.  This explains why you can't agree on terms.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Gentlemen,
The more I read about the history and theology of the magisterium, the more I realize that it is super complex.  The idea of the Magisterium itself is simple and most people readily understand it, including both of you.  But, if you study the history of it, you'll realize that theologians over the last few centuries, (especially after V1) have changed, added and refined many of the definitions/labels of the terms.  So it's very difficult to discuss this topic unless you define terms in the beginning.  For example, I think I read somewhere that the Magisterium used to only refer to 1) extraordinary definitions and 2) authoritative ordinary & universal teachings.  In other words, there was no such thing as the "ordinary, fallible" magisterium.  This makes sense to me, because in prior centuries, when popes spoke of the magisterium, they were obviously speaking of authoritative, clear-cut teachings.  They were NOT talking about the "ordinary, fallible" level, where the pope gives a sermon on sundays or he gives a speech at a religious conference.

Fast forward to the 1800s and the 1900s and theologians starting including ALL papal writings, sermons and lower-level synods, meetings, etc into the definition of the "ordinary/fallible" magisterium.  Why they did this, I don't know.  But there has been MUCH that has changed, definitionally, between the 1600s and now on this topic.  This explains why you can't agree on terms.
The thing that is complex, is the unlearning of the common misunderstanding, taught by certain 19th/20th century theologians, of what he Church's Magisterium is.

V1 tells us right in there that we are to believe all those things which are contained in Scripture and tradition, which are proposed by the Church as divinely revealed, whether by her Solemn Magisterium, or in her Ordinary Magisterium and Universal Magisterium."

Who here believes the V1 is going to teach that we "are to believe all those things" if among those things there is some things that are wrong, aside from Lad and forlorn? Who here believes that V1 teaches that there are wrong things which "we are to believe" in her Ordinary Magisterium and Universal Magisterium, aside from Lad and forlorn?

Who here can post an example of the "Magisterium being wrong at all, or even not so wrong that "it can't lead you into heresy or rejection of the faith". Not even Lad or forlorn.