Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.7%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (13.3%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (40%)
Other (please explain)
6 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 2759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline XavierSem

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1272
  • Reputation: +76/-129
  • Gender: Male
  • Immaculate Heart of Mary, May Your Triumph Come!
It is Catholic teaching that the entire Hierarchy, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church, cannot defect, die or disappear. Wilhelm and Scannell, for e.g. write, "The Indefectibility of the Teaching Body is at the same time a condition and a consequence of the Indefectibility of the Church ... the Teaching Body as a whole could not die or fail without irreparably destroying the continuity of authentic testimony." Where is this Teaching Body of the Church today, per SVs and others? Is it found among diocesan Bishops or not?
Do make Acts of Consecration to the Twin Hearts, Spiritual Offerings of the Precious Blood of Jesus in Union with the Holy Mass, like in St. Gertrude's Chaplet, along with Spiritual Communions at least every hour. The Saints say Spiritual Communions are a way to quickly advance to Union with God.

Offline Stubborn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9256
  • Reputation: +3684/-828
  • Gender: Male
It is Catholic teaching that the entire Hierarchy, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church, cannot defect, die or disappear. Wilhelm and Scannell, for e.g. write, "The Indefectibility of the Teaching Body is at the same time a condition and a consequence of the Indefectibility of the Church ... the Teaching Body as a whole could not die or fail without irreparably destroying the continuity of authentic testimony." Where is this Teaching Body of the Church today, per SVs and others? Is it found among diocesan Bishops or not?
This ^^^ is novus ordo thinking, but if it were true, then we are all bound under pain of mortal sin to be novus ordo. 

Just fwiw, whenever the Church speaks of anything "universal", "universal" always includes time as well as unanimity, as in "since the time of the Apostles and forever", and as in "always and everywhere". As such, the idea that today's hierarchy is "universal" or a "universal anything" only adds to the confusion.

In order to maintain clear thinking whenever speaking of the Church's Universal Magisterium, always reference Pope Pius IX's meaning:

"...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter

Hopefully this answers the thread's title question for you.
For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


Offline Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17385
  • Reputation: +9701/-4258
  • Gender: Male
This ^^^ is novus ordo thinking, but if it were true, then we are all bound under pain of mortal sin to be novus ordo.  

While the indefectibility of the Magisterium is Catholic teaching (although one could argue about its scope), and not mere Novus Ordo thinking, you are quite correct that XavierSem is inconsistent with his own principles and therefore guilty of formal schism.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17385
  • Reputation: +9701/-4258
  • Gender: Male
Your poll choices demonstrate that you not only know nothing about the OUM and what it actually is, but also that you lack any understanding of the current crisis.  You believe that the mere existence of the OUM is all that matters, even if it has defected from teaching truth.

Offline Stubborn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9256
  • Reputation: +3684/-828
  • Gender: Male
While the indefectibility of the Magisterium is Catholic teaching (although one could argue about its scope), and not mere Novus Ordo thinking, you are quite correct that XavierSem is inconsistent with his own principles and therefore guilty of formal schism.
It is actually something more than just novus ordo thinking, it's more like a novus ordo doctrine that the hierarchy is itself, the (indefectible) universal magisterium. The Church's magisterium has been made into a completely confused idea, it's to the point that I have only seen a very few who got it correct, most do exactly what the OP did - which would make 1) the teaching of today's NO hierarchy ("universal magisterium") true Catholic teaching - which necessarily would make 2) 2000 years of the Church's Universal Magisterium (prior to V2) all lies.

Because it would go contrary to the NO narrative, point #2 is always non-existent in this novus ordo doctrine.  
   
For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis


Offline Climacus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Reputation: +10/-46
  • Gender: Male
This ^^^ is novus ordo thinking, but if it were true, then we are all bound under pain of mortal sin to be novus ordo.  

Just fwiw, whenever the Church speaks of anything "universal", "universal" always includes time as well as unanimity, as in "since the time of the Apostles and forever", and as in "always and everywhere". As such, the idea that today's hierarchy is "universal" or a "universal anything" only adds to the confusion.

In order to maintain clear thinking whenever speaking of the Church's Universal Magisterium, always reference Pope Pius IX's meaning:

"...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith." - Pope Pius IX, Tuas Libenter

Hopefully this answers the thread's title question for you.
This doesn't answer the question.  The indefectibility of the Church isn't constrained to a book of official teachings (doctrine); it also pertains to a living magisterium (and other things).  

Offline Climacus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Reputation: +10/-46
  • Gender: Male
Your poll choices demonstrate that you not only know nothing about the OUM and what it actually is, but also that you lack any understanding of the current crisis.  You believe that the mere existence of the OUM is all that matters, even if it has defected from teaching truth.
So who comprises the OUM of the Church according to you? 

Offline forlorn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1211
  • Reputation: +485/-805
  • Gender: Male
It is actually something more than just novus ordo thinking, it's more like a novus ordo doctrine that the hierarchy is itself, the (indefectible) universal magisterium. The Church's magisterium has been made into a completely confused idea, it's to the point that I have only seen a very few who got it correct, most do exactly what the OP did - which would make 1) the teaching of today's NO hierarchy ("universal magisterium") true Catholic teaching - which necessarily would make 2) 2000 years of the Church's Universal Magisterium (prior to V2) all lies.

Because it would go contrary to the NO narrative, point #2 is always non-existent in this novus ordo doctrine.  
  
Even the Wikipedia the Jew-Encyclopedia is honest enough as to recognise the second requirement, and yet most Novus Ordites aren't. However, the Magisterium refers not only to the Church's ancient teachings but also to the teaching authority of the Church and those who have it. That being the hierarchy of the Church, whom the indefectibility promise also applies to. If almost the entirety of the Church's hierarchy, including the Pope, teach heresy for decades - is that not defection? Xavier's question still stands, where is the legitimate teaching body of the Church? Does it rest in the hands of Pope Francis and his Liberal goons? Bishops in the SSPX, or the Thuc line, or... etc.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17385
  • Reputation: +9701/-4258
  • Gender: Male
So who comprises the OUM of the Church according to you?

Do you mean who exercises the OUM?

That is clearly defined by Vatican I.  Pope and the bishops teaching unanimously in union with him, when they teach something as being de fide, cannot err.

Offline Climacus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
  • Reputation: +10/-46
  • Gender: Male
Do you mean who exercises the OUM?

That is clearly defined by Vatican I.  Pope and the bishops teaching unanimously in union with him, when they teach something as being de fide, cannot err.
Right. Who are these people presently.  

Offline Ladislaus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17385
  • Reputation: +9701/-4258
  • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!4
  • Even the Wikipedia the Jew-Encyclopedia is honest enough as to recognise the second requirement, and yet most Novus Ordites aren't. However, the Magisterium refers not only to the Church's ancient teachings but also to the teaching authority of the Church and those who have it. That being the hierarchy of the Church, whom the indefectibility promise also applies to. If almost the entirety of the Church's hierarchy, including the Pope, teach heresy for decades - is that not defection? Xavier's question still stands, where is the legitimate teaching body of the Church? Does it rest in the hands of Pope Francis and his Liberal goons? Bishops in the SSPX, or the Thuc line, or... etc.

    Absolutely.  Some seem to think that the mere existence of the Church and the Magisterium are all that's required for indefectibility.  But the Church cannot defect in her MISSION either.

    Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men.

    So the R&R emphasize "merely that the Church will persist to the end of time", while SVs emphasize that it can "never become corrupt in faith or in morals".


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17385
    • Reputation: +9701/-4258
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!4
  • No Thanks!3
  • Right. Who are these people presently.  

    Right now, since the Holy See is vacant, the OUM is not being exercised.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17385
    • Reputation: +9701/-4258
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!3
  • What XavierSem is bungling through attempting to articulate is to ask whether any organs of the Magisterium continue to exist today.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9256
    • Reputation: +3684/-828
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • This doesn't answer the question.  The indefectibility of the Church isn't constrained to a book of official teachings (doctrine); it also pertains to a living magisterium (and other things).  
    Not sure how one could think that; "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world etc...." could possibly fit in, or even is in a book.

    Catholics do not doubt the Church's indefectibility, rather, the Church's indefectibility is foundational to the faith. Those that have little or no faith, they doubt the Church's indefectibility, precisely because they have little or no faith in the Church's indefectibility.

    Magisterium = teachings, not people, not hierarchy. Living magisterium = Ordinary magisterium, which is the day to day teachings of the Church - that's what the Church does, it teaches us how to get to heaven - which, because they are necessarily teachings of the Church's Universal and/or Extraordinary Magisterium, the Church's Ordinary Magisterium's teachings are also infallible.

    Infallible = indefectible. Indefectibility means, simply, that in the end, the Church will be victorious over hell.  
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Stubborn

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 9256
    • Reputation: +3684/-828
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Even the Wikipedia the Jew-Encyclopedia is honest enough as to recognise the second requirement, and yet most Novus Ordites aren't. However, the Magisterium refers not only to the Church's ancient teachings but also to the teaching authority of the Church and those who have it. That being the hierarchy of the Church, whom the indefectibility promise also applies to. If almost the entirety of the Church's hierarchy, including the Pope, teach heresy for decades - is that not defection? Xavier's question still stands, where is the legitimate teaching body of the Church? Does it rest in the hands of Pope Francis and his Liberal goons? Bishops in the SSPX, or the Thuc line, or... etc.
    Where do you get the idea that the hierarchy is indefectible? Do you believe they're infallible too? If not, then how is a fallible hierarchy able to be indefectible?

    From: Who Shall Ascend?

    ...Contrary to such reasoning, it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately. Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices.

    "One who is no longer a Catholic," they say, "cannot possibly hold an office within the Church, nor exercise legitimate authority." No, even though these individuals have incurred the censures of the Church's law for heresy, apostasy, the desecration of the churches, the violation of the Sacraments, for these and similar crimes, they continue to be the legitimate
    authorities of the Church. And since they do hold these offices, others who seek to interpose themselves into authority over the Catholic faithful, commit schismatical acts in doing so, and themselves incur the penalties of the Code. - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16