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Author Topic: What His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI accomplished with Summorum Pontificuм.  (Read 3888 times)

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Re: What His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI accomplished with Summorum Pontificuм.
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2019, 08:35:43 PM »
I told you.  XavierSem is NOT a Traditional Catholic.  Traditional Catholics are not content for the True Faith and the True Mass to be given a place in the Novus Ordo pantheon.  Until Christ the King reigns and the Novus Ordo abomination is rid from the face of the earth, the crisis continues.
I realize you have doubt about this, and that's fair, but *if* Francis is in fact the Roman Pontiff we should want communion with him.  I don't think that necessitates accepting the Novus Ordo as good or licit, but it does seem to mean being willing to accept a personal prelature or something like that.  YOu don't get to break communion with the legitimate hierarchy because *they* aren't doing what they're supposed to do.

If they're actually antipopes I realize that's a different story.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI accomplished with Summorum Pontificuм.
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2019, 03:11:04 AM »
I realize you have doubt about this, and that's fair, but *if* Francis is in fact the Roman Pontiff we should want communion with him.  I don't think that necessitates accepting the Novus Ordo as good or licit, but it does seem to mean being willing to accept a personal prelature or something like that.  YOu don't get to break communion with the legitimate hierarchy because *they* aren't doing what they're supposed to do.

If they're actually antipopes I realize that's a different story.

If these men are/were undoubtedly legitimate popes, the SSPX should have made haste to re-enter full Communion with them LONG ago, along the lines of an FSSP.


Re: What His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI accomplished with Summorum Pontificuм.
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2019, 10:16:59 AM »
Xavier says there’s a “possibility” of good happening...in 2050?  30 yrs from now?!  
Yes, it's realistic, and it'll take a lot of effort and prayer to get there. It won't happen overnight without miraculous intervention, and it's not unreasonable to say so. But what's your plan, btw? Disrupt the SSPX in its efforts to get there, and attack the FSSP, ICK etc as non-traditional? Ridiculous. After 50 years of doing that, how many united Priests do you sede vacantists/privationists have and how far to convincing all Priests to offer the TLM have you come? There are some 415000 Priests in the mainstream Church. Can you show me 500 sede Priests? And you say you have a plan? The SSPV even questions the sede Thuc line. Great prospects there.

I've mentioned one plan before: in France, Archbishop Lefebvre's own country, 20% of new Ordinations are Traditional - i.e. SSPX, FSSP, ICK etc - there's a very good prospect that in just 20 years, based on retirement rates and new Ordination rates, by 2038, Traditional Priests will be more than mainstream Priests i.e. more than 50 % of all Priests. I'm not going to docuмent it again for those who want to continue to be blind to reality. It is only in that way that we can plan the triumph of Tradition.

It is the petition we make in my (and most) SSPX chapels after the hymn to Saint Pius X (Sancte Pie Decime, Gloriose Patrone, Ora Pro Nobis), "O Lord grant us Priests. O Lord grant us many Priests. O Lord grant us many holy Priests. O Lord grant us many religious vocations. O Lord grant us Catholic Families". We need abundant vocations from Catholic Families, in particular many Priests laboring for souls. Like at least 10,000 solely from Traditional Fraternities in the next 30 years. Sede-ism has not produced that in more than 50.

But that will require (1) SSPX, FSSP and ICK firmly united and working together (2) saying no to non-Catholic silliness like SV, EV etc. If one believes there's nothing that can be done to bring Tradition back to Rome, then one will not even attempt efforts toward Restoration.

Quote from: Liarslaus
XavierSem is NOT a Traditional Catholic [Sedevacantist Sectarian]
Yes, you're a sedevacantist sectarian, and I am not. We know that, and I've given you incontrovertible reasons elsewhere that 61 year SVism leads to total heresy. I can easily prove the true traditional Catholic position on the TLM's superiority to the NOM from (1) Archbishop Lefebvre (2) Bishop Fellay, (3) Fr. Gleize and even (4) Bishop Williamson. And even from (4) The first principles of Traditional Catholic Theology on Validity and Integrity. Take the examples of Baptism, and Exorcism. Holy Baptism is valid and confers grace even if nothing else is said but "I baptize you in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit", yet it is not normally allowable to baptize merely like that. The reason being, that is not an integral Baptism, and so many graces would be lost. Similarly, the true opinion on the New Mass is that it is vastly inferior to the TLM, because it is not an integral Mass, but a truncated one. This can more easily be seen by the example Archbishop Lefebvre gave of Cardinal Mindszentsy offering Holy Mass in Prison with little more than the Words of Consecration. That was, +ABL says, both a valid Sacrament and Sacrifices; but the graces would be less. I'm not obliged to explain anymore to someone as boorish and polemical as yourself, but read this and you will see the true opinion: "Archbishop Lefebvre also said: “I never denied that these Masses said faithfully according to the Novus Ordo were valid; nor did I ever say that they were heretical or blasphemous.”2 Careful, therefore! Let us be firm, but let us not be simplistic." http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=3501 The true opinion is that an NOM would have like 1/100th of the TLM's graces. Archbishop Lefebvre also said, "Make every effort to have the Mass of St. Pius V, but if it is impossible to find one within forty kilometers and if there is a pious priest who says the New Mass in as traditional a way as possible, it is good for you to assist at it to fulfill your Sunday obligation." https://sspx.org/en/what-archbishop-lefebvre-said-about-new-mass

Therefore, the TLM is necessary and must be restored everywhere; otherwise the Church and the Faithful, and even the world, will be starved of the graces it desperately needs, as we in fact observe in the world. And also, that the TLM alone gives the greatest glory to God is enough for any Priest to offer it exclusively.

It is only after Summorum Pontificuм that an injustice that existed for nearly 40 years prior to it has been corrected; and not completely. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI accomplished with Summorum Pontificuм.
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2019, 10:47:07 AM »
Yes, you're a sedevacantist sectarian, and I am not. 

No, I'm not.  I've explained this a dozen times.  I am what I have called a sede-doubtist.  You on the other hand presumably believe with the certainty of faith that these men are popes, and also that there's no theological reason to prefer SSPX over, say, FSSP.  That makes you a schismatic for being out of full communion with the Church without adequate justification.

Canon Lawyers teach that someone is not schismatic if he refuses submission due to doubts about the Pope's legitimacy, so I am not schismatic.  You, on the other hand, are.  Consequently, your calling me a schismatic is like the black pot calling the white china "black".

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI accomplished with Summorum Pontificuм.
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2019, 10:51:20 AM »
We know that, and I've given you incontrovertible reasons elsewhere that 61 year SVism leads to total heresy. I can easily prove the true traditional Catholic position on the TLM's superiority to the NOM from (1) Archbishop Lefebvre (2) Bishop Fellay, (3) Fr. Gleize and even (4) Bishop Williamson.

No, you've been completely debunked over and over again regarding your so-called "incontrovertible reasons".  As for attempting to claim the support of +Lefebvre et al. regarding the "superiority" of the TLM over the NOM, give us a break; you have a lot of audacity. You are slandering them by pretending they support your position.  +Lefebvre et al. held that the NOM was positively defective, a "bastard rite", and should not be attended by Catholics.  You water this down into the TLM is "superior" to the NOM, and that the NOM gives "less grace" due to being truncated.  If you do not hold that the NOM is positively harmful and defective, then you are not a Traditional Catholic.

If someone like you, with this thinking, has been accepted into the neo-SSPX seminary, then the demise of the SSPX is already at hand.  I am less disturbed by your thinking (people who think like you are a dime a dozen, although they're usually females) than by the fact that the SSPX has no problems with it.