Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites  (Read 3345 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Texana

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 511
  • Reputation: +212/-58
  • Gender: Female
Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2024, 03:15:51 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 02:27:42 PM
    In a certain sense, this is good, because if the SSPX priests avoided receiving sacraments from Novus Ordo priests, they would be huge hypocrites.

    If they take the same poison that they impose to the faithful, it means that at least they are sincere.
    They are sincerely allowing many souls to be deprived of the true Sacraments, including their own.  What a betrayal of the souls in their care-- on a colossal scale!
    Logged

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1512
    • Reputation: +1238/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #16 on: January 09, 2024, 06:08:57 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 02:48:40 PM
    If you have the Spanish text, I would like to read it, although I suspect that it was originally published in French.
    I've just tried to post the study as an attachment, hope it worked!
    Logged

    Offline Yeti

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4065
    • Reputation: +2403/-524
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #17 on: January 09, 2024, 08:28:10 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on January 09, 2024, 09:01:10 AM
    What about confessing to a priest who was ordained by a traditional bishop using the new rite?
    .

    Has this ever even happened? Why would a traditional bishop use the new rite of holy orders?

    To answer your question, no, anyone ordained using the new rite is doubtful, regardless of who performed the new rite.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46423
    • Reputation: +27334/-5046
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #18 on: January 09, 2024, 08:52:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on January 09, 2024, 08:28:10 PM
    .

    Has this ever even happened? Why would a traditional bishop use the new rite of holy orders?

    To answer your question, no, anyone ordained using the new rite is doubtful, regardless of who performed the new rite.

    I think what this means is a bishop consecrated in the Traditional Rite who then later ordained the priest in the New Rite (.e.g. old bishops consecrated before V2 but then later using the New Rite to ordain priests).

    I guess there are some who consider the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration doubtful but the New Rite of Ordination valid.

    I consider both doubtful and would not go to Confession to a priest either ordained in the New Rite or ordained by a bishop who was consecrated in the New Rite ... except in danger of death with no other option.  That last scenario is where doubtful vs. certainly invalid plays in.  If you're certain it's invalid, you can't go even in danger of death (it would be meaningless).

    I think there are these permutations.  I will use Traditional and New as short-hand for Consecrated / Ordained in the Traditional Rite and Consecrated / Ordained in the New Rite.

    Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
    Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful
    New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Doubtful
    New Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful

    That's how it shakes out for me.
    Logged

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46423
    • Reputation: +27334/-5046
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #19 on: January 09, 2024, 08:55:47 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • MY VIEW:
    Quote
    Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
    Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful
    New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Doubtful
    New Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful

    Some Alternative Views:
    Quote
    Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
    Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Valid
    New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Doubtful
    New Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful

    Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
    Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Valid
    New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
    New Bishop + New Priest = Valid



    Logged

    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1313
    • Reputation: +1055/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #20 on: January 09, 2024, 09:26:18 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 09, 2024, 06:08:57 PM
    I've just tried to post the study as an attachment, hope it worked!

    It worked. Thank you very much.

    Logged

    Offline Twice dyed

    • Supporter
    • **
    • Posts: 480
    • Reputation: +200/-20
    • Gender: Male
    • Violet, purple, and scarlet twice dyed. EX: 35, 6.
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #21 on: January 10, 2024, 04:40:41 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
    • I am confident that Fr Calderon's study :" Si las Consagraciones Episcopales Reformadas por Pablo VI son Validas." was written in Spanish.  SiSi NoNo translated it to French and was published November 2014, Number 267.  
    Not sure if there is another article titled: " Validez de las Consagraciones Episcopales segun el rito de Paulo VI:, by Fr Calderon? Anyway, in case you haven't read this yet, my att. here is a VERY short summary...It is computer translated from the Portuguese I imagine. Now we are dealing with  F O U R  languages!
    Holy Mother Church needs prayers!
    Logged
    La mesure de l'amour, c'est d'aimer sans mesure.
    The measure of love is to love without measure.
                                     St. Augustine (354 - 430 AD)

    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1313
    • Reputation: +1055/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #22 on: January 11, 2024, 10:40:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • I read the whole thing in the original Spanish text, and this part caught my attention:


    Quote
    La muy probable validez del rito nos parece que hace moralmente aceptable asistir ocasionalmente a la misa(rito tradicional) celebrada por un sacerdote o un obispo ordenado o consagrado en el rito nuevo, y aún comulgar en ella; nos parece aceptable, en caso de necesidad, recibirla absolución de parte de ellos; tratarlos como sacerdotes y obispos y no como laicos disfrazados; nos parece aceptable permitirles celebrar en nuestras propias casas. Porque las sombras queflotan sobre la validez de su sacerdocio no son más que sombras y en todas esas actividades no se compromete nuestra responsabilidad acerca del sacerdocio ejercido. Y el riesgo remoto de que una comunión o una absolución sean inválidas no es tan grave.

    Google Translator to English:

    Quote
    The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend the mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even take communion in it; We find it acceptable, if necessary, to receive absolution from them; treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in disguise; We find it acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. Because the shadows that float over the validity of his priesthood are nothing more than shadows and in all these activities our responsibility regarding the priesthood exercised is not compromised. And the remote risk of a communion or absolution being invalid is not that serious.

    I have learned that the Church does not allow receiving probable sacraments.:confused:


    Also, the risk of an invalid absolution seems to be very serious to me, since it could change the eternal destiny of a soul.

    And it is good to know that the SSPX is not responsible for the priesthood exercised in their chapels.

    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11353
    • Reputation: +6333/-1095
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #23 on: January 11, 2024, 10:49:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Yeti on January 09, 2024, 08:28:10 PM
    .

    Has this ever even happened? Why would a traditional bishop use the new rite of holy orders?

    To answer your question, no, anyone ordained using the new rite is doubtful, regardless of who performed the new rite.
    Case in point:  Fr Hesse.
    Logged

    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11353
    • Reputation: +6333/-1095
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #24 on: January 11, 2024, 10:57:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on January 11, 2024, 10:40:25 AM
    I read the whole thing in the original Spanish text, and this part caught my attention:


    Google Translator to English:

    The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend the mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even take communion in it; We find it acceptable, if necessary, to receive absolution from them; treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in disguise; We find it acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. Because the shadows that float over the validity of his priesthood are nothing more than shadows and in all these activities our responsibility regarding the priesthood exercised is not compromised. And the remote risk of a communion or absolution being invalid is not that serious.

    I have learned that the Church does not allow receiving probable sacraments.:confused:


    Also, the risk of an invalid absolution seems to be very serious to me, since it could change the eternal destiny of a soul.

    And it is good to know that the SSPX is not responsible for the priesthood exercised in their chapels.
    Very probable.  🤦‍♀️

    By the way, this study by Fr Calderon is from 2014??  I thought it was a recent study, and that is why there was so much talk on here about learning about it and why Plenus Venter was so busy translating it.
    Logged

    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1313
    • Reputation: +1055/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #25 on: January 11, 2024, 11:04:29 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: 2Vermont on January 11, 2024, 10:57:51 AM
    Very probable.  🤦‍♀️

    By the way, this study by Fr Calderon is from 2014??  I thought it was a recent study, and that is why there was so much talk on here about learning about it and why Plenus Venter was so busy translating it.

    Yes, from 2014.

    It has never been translated into English as far as I am aware, and the original text in Spanish is not easy to find.
    Logged

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12025
    • Reputation: +7563/-2277
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #26 on: January 11, 2024, 11:10:26 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0

    • Quote
    I have learned that the Church does not allow receiving probable sacraments.:confused: title=confused
    Yep.  Canon Law forbids attending "probable" or "very probably valid" masses/sacraments.  Fr Calderon's study and conclusion is wrong.
    Logged

    Offline Texana

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 511
    • Reputation: +212/-58
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #27 on: January 11, 2024, 11:28:21 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 11, 2024, 11:10:26 AM
    Yep.  Canon Law forbids attending "probable" or "very probably valid" masses/sacraments.  Fr Calderon's study and conclusion is wrong.
    Amen!
    Logged

    Offline Plenus Venter

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1512
    • Reputation: +1238/-97
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #28 on: January 11, 2024, 05:58:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on January 11, 2024, 10:40:25 AM

    Also, the risk of an invalid absolution seems to be very serious to me, since it could change the eternal destiny of a soul.

    And it is good to know that the SSPX is not responsible for the priesthood exercised in their chapels.
    He is talking about absolution in a case of NECESSITY, e.g. danger of death with no other priest available.

    It's a good point you raise, but I think from the context he is not approving these priests offering public Masses and giving the sacraments in SSPX 'houses', only private Masses, thus the responsibility for of the SSPX for souls is not being engaged.

    When he says 'occasionally attend their Masses or receive communion' I get the impression he means for 'a proportionally grave reason' rather than on an ad hoc basis.

    Everything needs to be read in context:

    As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new Episcopal Consecrations, the one that the Society has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

    1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally assist at the Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive Communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own houses. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning their exercise of the priesthood. And the remote risk that one communion or one absolution may be invalid is not so serious
    .
    2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent our having certainty of its validity, it seems to us - until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by New Bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the Sacraments (33).

    Father Alvaro Calderon



    Logged

    Offline Giovanni Berto

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1313
    • Reputation: +1055/-80
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
    « Reply #29 on: January 11, 2024, 06:09:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
    • Quote from: Plenus Venter on January 11, 2024, 05:58:36 PM
    He is talking about absolution in a case of NECESSITY, e.g. danger of death with no other priest available.

    It's a good point you raise, but I think from the context he is not approving these priests offering public Masses and giving the sacraments in SSPX 'houses', only private Masses, thus the responsibility for of the SSPX for souls is not being engaged.

    When he says 'occasionally attend their Masses or receive communion' I get the impression he means for 'a proportionally grave reason' rather than on an ad hoc basis.

    Everything needs to be read in context:

    As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new Episcopal Consecrations, the one that the Society has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

    1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally assist at the Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive Communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own houses. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning their exercise of the priesthood. And the remote risk that one communion or one absolution may be invalid is not so serious
    .
    2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent our having certainty of its validity, it seems to us - until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by New Bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the Sacraments (33).

    Father Alvaro Calderon




    As I see it, he says one thing on number 1, and another on number 2.

    Considering the greater picture, so to speak, and not just this text, it seems to me that Fr. Calderon cannot abstain from saying number 2, as his conscience would probably be troubled, but, as he is an SSPX priest, he is bound to say number 1, otherwise, he would be shown exit the door.

    All the same, the SSPX praxis is to completely ignore number 2.
    Logged
    Pages: 1 [2] 3
    « previous next »