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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Plenus Venter on January 08, 2024, 04:23:03 PM

Title: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 08, 2024, 04:23:03 PM
https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/

Validity of the Sacraments Reformed by Paul VI
 
Article published in Le Sel de la Terre 124, Spring 2023
Dominicans of Avrillé
 
On June 30, 1988, in his episcopal consecration sermon, Archbishop Lefebvre pronounced these words:
All these seminarians here present, if tomorrow the good Lord calls me back, from whom will they receive the sacrament of Holy Orders? Conciliar bishops whose sacraments are all dubious because we don’t know exactly what their intentions are? This is not possible. […] So I cannot in good conscience leave these seminarians orphans by disappearing without doing anything for the future.”1 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote1sym)
These are serious remarks. They beg the question: on what grounds does Archbishop Lefebvre base his assertion that the sacraments of modernist bishops and priests are all dubious?
A letter written to an American correspondent on the following October 28 gives us some clues to the answer. Archbishop Lefebvre spoke of priests ordained according to the new rite:
I agree with your desire to conditionally reorder these priests, and I have done so many times. All the sacraments of modernist bishops and priests are dubious now, because the rites are more and more modified and their intentions are no longer Catholic. We are in the age of the great apostasy.”2 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote2sym)
 
General Considerations:
The Danger of Changing the Law
Even if it could be shown that the changes introduced into the sacraments are a better formula in themselves, this would not justify their introduction.
Saint Thomas Aquinas notes the danger of change in any law:
The mere modification of the law is in itself a kind of detriment to the common good. The reason for this is that, to ensure the observance of laws, habituation plays a key role. […] This is why, when there is a change in the law, the force of constraint diminishes to the very extent that custom has disappeared (I-II, q. 97, a. 2).
Saint Thomas concludes that the law should only be changed in cases of “very great and obvious utility”, or “extreme necessity”. This was definitely not the case.
Here, we’re dealing with immemorial rites, and their modification necessarily introduces disorder and disquiet.
Such changes would only be beneficial if the advantages far outweighed the disadvantages.
But, in fact the modifications are disadvantageous, because they were made under the influence of modernism, introducing ambiguities and finally doubts about their validity.
 
Rites Have Been Modified Under the Influence of Modernism
The rites of all the sacraments have in fact been changed in an ecuмenical spirit, so that they no longer clearly express what the Church intends to do in administering them. Thus, the master builder of the new Mass, Father Bugnini, wrote:
The Church has been guided by the love of souls and the desire to do everything possible to facilitate the path of union for our separated brothers and sisters, removing any stone that could constitute even the shadow of a risk of stumbling or displeasure.3 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote3sym)
Six Protestant pastors were then invited to participate in the drafting of the new Mass. It has been argued that they were merely observers, and did not participate in the drafting. This is not true. Bishop Baume, responsible for ecuмenical affairs of the Mexican bishops’ conference, in an interview published by the Detroit News on June 27, 1967, said of the pastors:
They are here not just as observers, but also as experts. They participate fully in discussions on Catholic liturgical renewal. It wouldn’t make much sense if they just listened. But they contribute.4 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote4sym)
The resulting ambiguity is considerable. Cardinals Ottaviani (former secretary of the Holy Office) and Bacci, for example, were able to write about the new Mass:
The new Ordo Missae […] departs impressively, both overall and in detail, from the Catholic theology of the Holy Mass as formulated at the XXth session of the Council of Trent, which, in definitively fixing the “canons” of the rite, raised an insurmountable barrier against any heresy that might undermine the integrity of the mystery.5 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote5sym)
In the newspaper Le Monde of October 3, 1984, Pastor Viot wrote, following the relative permission to celebrate the traditional Mass granted by Pope John Paul II:
The reintroduction of the Pius V Mass is much more than a matter of language: it’s a doctrinal issue of the utmost importance. Many of our ancestors in the Reformed faith, according to the Word of God, preferred to be burnt at the stake than to hear this type of Mass. Therefore, we were pleased with the decisions of Vatican II on this matter and with Rome’s firmness toward those who would not submit to the Council and continued to use a Mass that we considered contrary to the Gospel.
The result was that Protestants didn’t convert, most Catholics stopped practicing, and many of those who continued to practice now have a Protestant mentality, if they haven’t lost their faith. The same can be said of priests and bishops.
 
Doubtful Intentions Due to Ambiguous Rites
Before the conciliar reforms, the (subjective and difficult to discern) question of the intention of sacramental ministers was never asked. The traditional rites expressed the Church’s doctrine so clearly that the mere fact that they were used did not cast doubt on the validity of the sacraments:
When someone, in order to confer or administer a sacrament, seriously and regularly uses the required matter and form, it is considered, by this very fact, that he has manifestly wished to do what the Church does. This principle underpins the doctrine that there is a real sacrament even when it is conferred by the ministry of a heretic or a non-baptized Catholic, provided it is according to the Catholic rite.6 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote6sym)
Saint Thomas Aquinas, examining this question, adds the following clarification: “provided that neither the minister nor the subject outwardly manifest a contrary intention” (III, q. 64, a. 8, ad 2 in fine).
Since the reformed rites express an ambiguous doctrine open to misinterpretation, there is now doubt as to the validity of their administration, insofar as the ministers, imbued with the new ecclesiology of Vatican II, may have an intention formally opposed to that of the Catholic Church. We might add that we are now 35 years on from the judgment formulated by Archbishop Lefebvre, and that the situation in the Church has deteriorated even further since then.
Even if doubt grows with time, it cannot be asserted that the Reformed sacraments are per se invalid. Archbishop Lefebvre never said this, and even fought against this conclusion, which has no theological foundation.
Let’s take a quick look at each of the seven sacraments.
 
The Seven Sacraments
Baptism
Material and form remain unchanged.
However, the exorcisms have been abolished. This does not invalidate baptism, but it does deprive the child of the protection against the devil that the Church still deems necessary.
It is therefore necessary to complete baptisms with exorcisms, especially for children.
However, there are more and more invalid baptisms, not because the priest doesn’t have the faith – let’s repeat that – but because many priests don’t think that the rubrics must be fulfilled seriously for the sacrament to be valid: most priests no longer baptize on the forehead but on the head, but sometimes the water does not touch the skin when the hair is abundant; some say the words and ask the godmother to pour the water; others change the form by saying “we baptize you”, because they think that it is the community that baptizes (many cases have been discovered, and declared invalid by today’s Rome), etc. It has become necessary to question people coming from the conciliar Church about their baptism.
Confirmation
The form of the sacrament has been changed, taken from a valid Eastern rite. It’s unusual, but doesn’t change anything in terms of validity. However, there may be some doubt about the translation of these words into the vernacular. They must express the grace of the sacrament sufficiently for it to be valid. This is not always the case.
The material for the sacrament of Confirmation is olive oil, blessed by the bishop. The 1917 Code of Canon Law refers only to this oil (C. 734 § 2). Our Lord, in his agony in the Garden of Olives, sanctified these olive trees with the sweat of his blood. Moreover, olive oil is the true substance that corresponds to the character of oil. All other oils are substitutes. However, Pope Paul VI and the new Code of Canon Law (C. 847 § 1) allow the use of oils from “other plants”, which was always considered a cause of invalidity by all theologians until Vatican II:
The use of olive oil is not only an ecclesiastical precept, but is required for the value of the sacrament. Everyone teaches this. So, confirmation would be invalid if petroleum oil, walnut oil, etc. were used.7 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote7sym)
Since we cannot know which oil has been used, it is legitimate and necessary to conditionally reconfirm those who have received confirmation in the new rite.
The Eucharist
As the ambiguity of the new rite is extreme (see above), the number of Masses invalidated by formal opposition to the Church’s intention continues to grow. To this must be added the deficient training of future priests in the new seminaries. Archbishop Lefebvre said that even Rome today is incapable of training Catholic priests.
Penance
Instead of: ” I absolve you of your sins “, the new form (in French) is: ” I forgive you your sins “. The word “ absolve “, which means “to remit sins, to give absolution” is the correct term: to forgive is too broad, since one man can forgive another man, only God can absolve (and the priest who acts in his name). But this probably has no effect on validity, since priests who confess use the word “forgive” in the sense of “absolve”.
In addition, most conciliar priests have lost the true notion of sin, so that they confess less and less, and don’t know how to give the necessary advice. They have received no serious training in moral theology in the new seminaries.
As for the practice of collective absolutions, which became widespread after the Council, it only obtains the erasure of venial sins.
Extreme Unction
For validity, the material is the same as for confirmation: olive oil blessed by the bishop. The same remarks can be made here as above.
While the new form still signifies the strength given to the sick and the remission of sins effected by this sacrament, the liturgy of Extreme Unction has been considerably reworked. In particular, the anointing of the eyes, ears, nostrils, mouth and feet has been abolished. Only the forehead and hands remain. This does not affect validity, since anointing the forehead is sufficient (for example, in an emergency), but it does remove the significance of anointing to obtain remission of sins caused by the senses.
More serious is the now-general custom of conferring the sacrament of Extreme Unction on all elderly people in the parish or in retirement homes who are not in imminent danger of death. The 1917 Code of Canon Law states the following about this sacrament:
Extreme Unction may only be administered to the faithful who, having had the use of reason, find themselves in peril of death as a result of illness or old age (C. 940).
If there is not at least one doubt about the peril of death, the sacrament is invalidly conferred. Collective absolution would only be permissible in the event of imminent peril of death: shipwreck, soldiers mounting an assault, and so on.
Marriage
For there to be matrimonial consent, the contracting parties must at least be aware that marriage is a permanent partnership between a man and a woman, which serves to procreate children (C. 1082 § 1, 1917 Code).
As it is the spouses who are the ministers of the sacrament, and no specific formula is required on their side to exchange their consents, it is sufficient that in expressing it, they intend to contract a true marriage, for it to be valid; provided, of course, that they have no impediments.
Orders
a. The new ritual for the ordination of priests
+ Changes of form
The two changes affecting the form are (in the original Latin text)8 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote8sym):
1. – Deleting a “ut”.
This gives: “Pour into their souls the spirit of holiness, may they obtain from you the office of second merit“. (i.e. priestly character); instead of: “Pour into their souls the spirit of holiness in order that they may obtain from you the office of second merit” (translation of the traditional formula). The new expression better expresses the power given, which is distinct from the spirit of holiness.
2. The second change consists in a dative his famulis instead of an accusative in hos famulos. Priestly grace is given to the ordinands, rather than in them. However, it should be noted that in the editions of the Roman Pontifical published by the Vatican presses (the typical 1968 edition and the second of 1990), we find the old formula “in hos famulos“, the correction being made both in the text of the Constitution Pontificalis Romani printed at the head of the Pontifical and in the texts of the prayers to be sung or recited.9 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote9sym)
The new Latin form is almost identical to the old one, especially in the edited Pontifical, so we see no reason to doubt the validity of the form.
However, it would be necessary to verify how the ceremony is actually performed, generally in the vernacular, with varying degrees of fantasy.
+ Removal of Rites Signifying the Effect of the Sacrament
On the other hand, although the words essential to validity remain, they have unfortunately been removed:
1. for the anointing of the hands of the new priest with the Holy Oils, the words “consecration” and “sanctification“;
2. the rite of porrection (touching) of the chalice and paten with mention of the power to celebrate Mass for the living and for the dead;
3. the rite of unfolding the chasuble towards the end of the ceremony, with the words: “Sins will be forgiven to those to whom you forgive them“.
These deletions cannot be innocent. They betray the desire not to offend Protestants by manifesting too clearly the powers of the priest. They also reflect the new conception of the priesthood, stemming from the new ecclesiology of Vatican II, where the distinction between the priesthood of the priest and that of the faithful is very blurred. The new rites therefore tend to avoid references to the transmission of personal powers, and insist on the notions of presidency and principality over the ecclesiastical community, hence the above deletions.
In 1990, Mgr Vilnet, then President of the French Episcopal Conference, wrote in the Bulletin des vocations du diocèse de Paris (no. 233): “Priestly ordination does not transmit the priesthood, but simply the transmission of the mission”. We can seriously question the validity of ordinations conferred with such an intention, formally opposed to that of the Church.
b. The New Ritual for the Consecration of Bishops
+ Probably A Valid Rite
In a study published in the Spanish edition of the journal Si Si No No, Father Alvaro Calderón (SSPX), professor of theology at the Seminary of La Reja (Argentina), concludes that the new rite is very probably valid10 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote10sym). Although its authors based their reform on the Traditio Apostolica, an ancient docuмent that does not belong to any particular Eastern or Western liturgical tradition, it is essentially identical with the rites of the Coptic Catholic and Syrian Maronite Churches, which have given the Church great saints: St. Athanasius and St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom and St. Jerome. We can also add Saint Maroun, Saint Charbel and various others.
+ A Certainly Illegitimate Rite
In the same study, however, Father Calderón notes that the new rite of episcopal consecration cannot have the force of law in the Church (which is what is meant by the word “illegitimate”):
The new rite that Paul VI intended to promulgate with his apostolic constitution Pontificalis Romani is certainly illegitimate for two reasons: firstly, because no pope has the authority to abrogate the Roman liturgical tradition, and even less to invent a rite at odds with the entire Catholic tradition; secondly, because the contagion of modernist doctrines renders it harmful to the faith, and a determination contrary to the common good of the Church cannot have the force of law.
+ A Rite Without the Guarantees of Either the Ordinary or the Extraordinary Magisterium
This new rite does not have the guarantee of the Church’s universal ordinary magisterium, since it is based on the Traditio apostolica (supra), which does not belong to any particular liturgical tradition. And it does not have the guarantee of the extraordinary magisterium. Although Paul VI took up the expression “supreme apostolic authority” used by Pius XII in his constitution Sacramentum ordinis (DS 3859), Abbé Calderón makes the following remark:
Since the Council and Ecclesiam suam, this expression no longer has the same meaning as it did for Pius XII, and hierarchical acts no longer offer us the assurance of divine authority. What’s more, the new Roman liturgical prescriptions are no more than a framework to be taken into account for liturgical inculturation in each place. If we wanted complete peace of conscience, we’d have to ask the Pope for an infallible declaration for each of the vernacular versions of the sacramental forms (p. 5).
CONCLUSION
Necessity of Conditional Re-ordinations and Re-Consecrations
Let’s quote Father Calderón’s conclusion, which seems self-evident:
The positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent us from being certain of its validity [since it is only probably valid] seem to us – until a Roman sentence, by which many things should change – to justify and make necessary the conditional re-ordination of priests consecrated by new bishops and, if necessary, the conditional re-consecration of these bishops. It is not possible to suffer such uncertainties at the very root of the sacraments (p. 6-7).
 
 
 
1 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote1anc) Msgr LEFEBVRE, Extract from the episcopal consecration sermon of 30 June 1988, Fideliter, July/August 1988, p. 6).
2 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote2anc) Msgr LEFEBVRE, Letter of 28 October 1988 to Mr Wilson. Published in Le Sel de la terre 98, p. 216-217.
3 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote3anc) D C 1445 (1965), col. 604.
4 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote4anc) The same was true during the Second Vatican Council. For example, Pastor Wilhem Schmidt claimed authorship of the expression susbistit in [the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church] in the Lumen gentium constitution on the Church. He had suggested it to Cardinal Frings through Abbé Ratzinger (Catéchisme catholique de la crise dans l’Église, by Abbé Gaudron, no. 29, Editions du Sel, 2014).
5 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote5anc) Preface to: A Brief Critical Study of the Novus Ordo Missae.
6 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote6anc) LÉO XIII, Lettre Apostolicae curae caritatis of 13 September 1896, on the invalidity of Anglican ordi-nations, DS 3318.
7 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote7anc) P. Prümmer O.P., Manuale Theologiae Moralis, Friburgi Brisgoviae, Herder, 1933, vol. III, no. 154.
8 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote8anc) Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, his famulis tuis Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eorum Spiritum sanctitatis; acceptum a te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineant, censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuent. According to the Constitution Pontificalis Romani of 18 June 1968, published in AAS 1968, p. 373, and in Notitiæ July-August 1968, p. 212.
9 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote9anc) So we have two versions (!!!) of the Constitution Pontificalis Romani: the one published in the AAS and the Notitiæ, and the one published in the Pontifical. The same cacophony was observed with the publication of the new Mass.
10 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote10anc) Fr. Calderón, « Si las consagraciones episcopales reformadas por Pablo VI son válidas », Si Si No No 267, november 2014.

Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 08, 2024, 06:06:50 PM
b. The New Ritual for the Consecration of Bishops
+ Probably A Valid Rite
In a study published in the Spanish edition of the journal Si Si No No, Father Alvaro Calderón (SSPX), professor of theology at the Seminary of La Reja (Argentina), concludes that the new rite is very probably valid10 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote10sym). Although its authors based their reform on the Traditio Apostolica, an ancient docuмent that does not belong to any particular Eastern or Western liturgical tradition, it is essentially identical with the rites of the Coptic Catholic and Syrian Maronite Churches, which have given the Church great saints: St. Athanasius and St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. John Chrysostom and St. Jerome. We can also add Saint Maroun, Saint Charbel and various others.

While I agree with their conclusion, since "probably" does not suffice, this is simply incorrect and was thoroughly refuted by Father Cekada.  Similarities with the Coptic/Syrian Rites are to the rites of the installation of a patriarch, where the patriarch is already a bishop.  I would hold that the rite of episcopal consecration is almost certainly INvalid.

In any case, we'll agree that in the practical order the result is the same, the need for conditional consecration.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: ElwinRansom1970 on January 08, 2024, 08:22:35 PM
While I agree with their conclusion, since "probably" does not suffice, this is simply incorrect and was thoroughly refuted by Father Cekada.  Similarities with the Coptic/Syrian Rites are to the rites of the installation of a patriarch, where the patriarch is already a bishop.  I would hold that the rite of episcopal consecration is almost certainly INvalid.

In any case, we'll agree that in the practical order the result is the same, the need for conditional consecration.
100% 🎯

Invalid (or doubtfully valid) episcopal consecrations have far-reaching consequences.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 09, 2024, 05:20:40 AM
While I agree with their conclusion, since "probably" does not suffice, this is simply incorrect and was thoroughly refuted by Father Cekada.  Similarities with the Coptic/Syrian Rites are to the rites of the installation of a patriarch, where the patriarch is already a bishop.  I would hold that the rite of episcopal consecration is almost certainly INvalid.

In any case, we'll agree that in the practical order the result is the same, the need for conditional consecration.
Hang in there, Lad, I've just received word from BW that he will try to look at my translation of Fr Calderon's study this coming week. You will be interested to read his treatment of this issue. However, as you say, it doesn't change how we ultimately treat the new rite: very probably is not good enough!
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 09, 2024, 07:54:27 AM
Hang in there, Lad, I've just received word from BW that he will try to look at my translation of Fr Calderon's study this coming week. You will be interested to read his treatment of this issue. However, as you say, it doesn't change how we ultimately treat the new rite: very probably is not good enough!

I consider this simply an academic disagreement, since in the practical order, the consequences are the same.  I also disagree that the Rite is certainly INvalid, as some hold, since I would need the Church's authority for certainty, but I do think that it's probably invalid and not probably valid.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Marulus Fidelis on January 09, 2024, 08:08:56 AM

Quote
I consider this simply an academic disagreement, since in the practical order, the consequences are the same.  I also disagree that the Rite is certainly INvalid, as some hold, since I would need the Church's authority for certainty, but I do think that it's probably invalid and not probably valid.



Do you need a declaration from the Church to know that the form: "I baptize you in the name of the God of surprises." is invalid? No? Well then you don't need a declaration to know that a form which does not signify the sacramental effects is equally invalid.

If you can't say which part of the form signifies the fullness of the priesthood and which signifies the grace of the Holy Ghost then the form is certainly invalid. Cekada has addressed every possible objection and it comes down to that simple fact.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 09, 2024, 08:22:14 AM
Do you need a declaration from the Church to know that the form ...

No, but this one isn't quite as obvious as your example.  I was saying that in this case I don't think we can have certainty about invalidity either.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 08:49:04 AM
Considering Fr. Calderon's conclusion, and that he is still part of the SSPX, I would like to ask him a very simple question:

"Would you confess a mortal sin to your fellow SSPX priest, who was ordained by a Novus Ordo bishop?"

I know I will never really ask any priest this question, but it is still very pertinent as a speculation.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: TheRealMcCoy on January 09, 2024, 09:01:10 AM
"Would you confess a mortal sin to your fellow SSPX priest, who was ordained by a Novus Ordo bishop?"

What about confessing to a priest who was ordained by a traditional bishop using the new rite?
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 09, 2024, 09:39:35 AM
https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/
+ Changes of form
The two changes affecting the form are (in the original Latin text)8 (https://dominicansavrille.us/validity-of-the-sacraments-reformed-by-paul-vi/#sdfootnote8sym):
1. – Deleting a “ut”.
This gives: “Pour into their souls the spirit of holiness, may they obtain from you the office of second merit“. (i.e. priestly character); instead of: “Pour into their souls the spirit of holiness in order that they may obtain from you the office of second merit” (translation of the traditional formula). The new expression better expresses the power given, which is distinct from the spirit of holiness.

Uhm, yeah, I'll have to strenuously disagree with this one here.  As Pope Pius XII taught in Sacramentum Ordinis, the essential components for the validity of the rites entail an invocation of the Holy Spirit to produce the Sacramental effect (the power given).

"spirit of holiness" is in fact the reference to the Holy Spirit here, so it should really be "Spirit of holiness" (capitalized) and the "office of second merit" the Sacramental effect.

By removing the "ut", you're actually severing the causality between the Holy Spirit and the sacramental efffect.

TRADITIONAL:  "May the Holy Spirit come down to make this man a priest."
NEW: "May the Holy Spirit come down.  May this man become a priest."

It MAY be implied in the revised/new rite, but it's equivocal.  You could be invoking the Holy Spirit to give the ordinand the proper dispositions or the graces necessary to faithfully carry out the office.  It's not clear and unequivocal that you're invoking the Holy Spirit in order for the Holy Spirit to make the man into a priest.

Verdict:  POSITIVE DOUBT about the form ... and IMO probably invalid.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 10:22:31 AM
What about confessing to a priest who was ordained by a traditional bishop using the new rite?

I stay away from these too.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Texana on January 09, 2024, 01:40:08 PM
Considering Fr. Calderon's conclusion, and that he is still part of the SSPX, I would like to ask him a very simple question:

"Would you confess a mortal sin to your fellow SSPX priest, who was ordained by a Novus Ordo bishop?"

I know I will never really ask any priest this question, but it is still very pertinent as a speculation.
Dear Giovanni Berto,
Unfortunately, I personally know an SSPX priest who did go to a novus ordo priest working with the Society for confession.  Whether a mortal sin was involved, only God knows.
  Remember, Fr. Stehlin in Poland has stated that it would be a sacrilege to conditionally ordain the novus ordo "priests" flocking to the growing SSPX.  It seems that some SSPX priests and bishops confuse piety with the indelible mark of a validly ordained priest by a bishop in the Apostolic Succession.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 02:27:42 PM
Dear Giovanni Berto,
Unfortunately, I personally know an SSPX priest who did go to a novus ordo priest working with the Society for confession.  Whether a mortal sin was involved, only God knows.
  Remember, Fr. Stehlin in Poland has stated that it would be a sacrilege to conditionally ordain the novus ordo "priests" flocking to the growing SSPX.  It seems that some SSPX priests and bishops confuse piety with the indelible mark of a validly ordained priest by a bishop in the Apostolic Succession.

In a certain sense, this is good, because if the SSPX priests avoided receiving sacraments from Novus Ordo priests, they would be huge hypocrites.

If they take the same poison that they impose to the faithful, it means that at least they are sincere.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 09, 2024, 02:40:37 PM
Either Pope Pius XII defined the form of the sacrament (for the Latin Rite) or he didn't.  The novus ordo (which is unquestionably part of the Latin Rite) does not conform to Pius XII's rules.  Ergo, there is a MAJOR positive doubt that it's invalid.

There really can't be a clearer case than this.

Didn't the Council of Florence also define the form of the "consecration of the wine" part of the Mass?  The novus ordo mass also DIRECTLY changed this prayer, so there is a MAJOR positive doubt it's valid.

Again, very clear.

You can't mix-n-match eastern rites with western rites and argue that "this" means the same as "that".  The popes have spoken on the form of the sacrament and V2 directly changed it.  Ergo, the positive doubt is quite large and obvious.  Anyone who tries to argue around these facts is just playing games.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 02:48:40 PM
Hang in there, Lad, I've just received word from BW that he will try to look at my translation of Fr Calderon's study this coming week. You will be interested to read his treatment of this issue. However, as you say, it doesn't change how we ultimately treat the new rite: very probably is not good enough!

If you have the Spanish text, I would like to read it, although I suspect that it was originally published in French.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Texana on January 09, 2024, 03:15:51 PM
In a certain sense, this is good, because if the SSPX priests avoided receiving sacraments from Novus Ordo priests, they would be huge hypocrites.

If they take the same poison that they impose to the faithful, it means that at least they are sincere.
They are sincerely allowing many souls to be deprived of the true Sacraments, including their own.  What a betrayal of the souls in their care-- on a colossal scale!
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 09, 2024, 06:08:57 PM
If you have the Spanish text, I would like to read it, although I suspect that it was originally published in French.
I've just tried to post the study as an attachment, hope it worked!
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Yeti on January 09, 2024, 08:28:10 PM
What about confessing to a priest who was ordained by a traditional bishop using the new rite?
.

Has this ever even happened? Why would a traditional bishop use the new rite of holy orders?

To answer your question, no, anyone ordained using the new rite is doubtful, regardless of who performed the new rite.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 09, 2024, 08:52:45 PM
.

Has this ever even happened? Why would a traditional bishop use the new rite of holy orders?

To answer your question, no, anyone ordained using the new rite is doubtful, regardless of who performed the new rite.

I think what this means is a bishop consecrated in the Traditional Rite who then later ordained the priest in the New Rite (.e.g. old bishops consecrated before V2 but then later using the New Rite to ordain priests).

I guess there are some who consider the New Rite of Episcopal Consecration doubtful but the New Rite of Ordination valid.

I consider both doubtful and would not go to Confession to a priest either ordained in the New Rite or ordained by a bishop who was consecrated in the New Rite ... except in danger of death with no other option.  That last scenario is where doubtful vs. certainly invalid plays in.  If you're certain it's invalid, you can't go even in danger of death (it would be meaningless).

I think there are these permutations.  I will use Traditional and New as short-hand for Consecrated / Ordained in the Traditional Rite and Consecrated / Ordained in the New Rite.

Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful
New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Doubtful
New Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful

That's how it shakes out for me.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 09, 2024, 08:55:47 PM
MY VIEW:
Quote
Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful
New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Doubtful
New Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful

Some Alternative Views:
Quote
Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Valid
New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Doubtful
New Bishop + New Priest = Doubtful

Traditional Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
Traditional Bishop + New Priest = Valid
New Bishop + Traditional Priest = Valid
New Bishop + New Priest = Valid



Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 09, 2024, 09:26:18 PM
I've just tried to post the study as an attachment, hope it worked!

It worked. Thank you very much.

Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Twice dyed on January 10, 2024, 04:40:41 PM
I am confident that Fr Calderon's study :" Si las Consagraciones Episcopales Reformadas por Pablo VI son Validas." was written in Spanish.  SiSi NoNo translated it to French and was published November 2014, Number 267.  
Not sure if there is another article titled: " Validez de las Consagraciones Episcopales segun el rito de Paulo VI:, by Fr Calderon? Anyway, in case you haven't read this yet, my att. here is a VERY short summary...It is computer translated from the Portuguese I imagine. Now we are dealing with  F O U R  languages!
Holy Mother Church needs prayers!
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 11, 2024, 10:40:25 AM
I read the whole thing in the original Spanish text, and this part caught my attention:


Quote
La muy probable validez del rito nos parece que hace moralmente aceptable asistir ocasionalmente a la misa(rito tradicional) celebrada por un sacerdote o un obispo ordenado o consagrado en el rito nuevo, y aún comulgar en ella; nos parece aceptable, en caso de necesidad, recibirla absolución de parte de ellos; tratarlos como sacerdotes y obispos y no como laicos disfrazados; nos parece aceptable permitirles celebrar en nuestras propias casas. Porque las sombras queflotan sobre la validez de su sacerdocio no son más que sombras y en todas esas actividades no se compromete nuestra responsabilidad acerca del sacerdocio ejercido. Y el riesgo remoto de que una comunión o una absolución sean inválidas no es tan grave.

Google Translator to English:

Quote
The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend the mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even take communion in it; We find it acceptable, if necessary, to receive absolution from them; treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in disguise; We find it acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. Because the shadows that float over the validity of his priesthood are nothing more than shadows and in all these activities our responsibility regarding the priesthood exercised is not compromised. And the remote risk of a communion or absolution being invalid is not that serious.

I have learned that the Church does not allow receiving probable sacraments.:confused:


Also, the risk of an invalid absolution seems to be very serious to me, since it could change the eternal destiny of a soul.

And it is good to know that the SSPX is not responsible for the priesthood exercised in their chapels.

Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: 2Vermont on January 11, 2024, 10:49:48 AM
.

Has this ever even happened? Why would a traditional bishop use the new rite of holy orders?

To answer your question, no, anyone ordained using the new rite is doubtful, regardless of who performed the new rite.
Case in point:  Fr Hesse.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: 2Vermont on January 11, 2024, 10:57:51 AM
I read the whole thing in the original Spanish text, and this part caught my attention:


Google Translator to English:

The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally attend the mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even take communion in it; We find it acceptable, if necessary, to receive absolution from them; treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in disguise; We find it acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own homes. Because the shadows that float over the validity of his priesthood are nothing more than shadows and in all these activities our responsibility regarding the priesthood exercised is not compromised. And the remote risk of a communion or absolution being invalid is not that serious.

I have learned that the Church does not allow receiving probable sacraments.:confused:


Also, the risk of an invalid absolution seems to be very serious to me, since it could change the eternal destiny of a soul.

And it is good to know that the SSPX is not responsible for the priesthood exercised in their chapels.
Very probable.  🤦‍♀️

By the way, this study by Fr Calderon is from 2014??  I thought it was a recent study, and that is why there was so much talk on here about learning about it and why Plenus Venter was so busy translating it.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 11, 2024, 11:04:29 AM
Very probable.  🤦‍♀️

By the way, this study by Fr Calderon is from 2014??  I thought it was a recent study, and that is why there was so much talk on here about learning about it and why Plenus Venter was so busy translating it.

Yes, from 2014.

It has never been translated into English as far as I am aware, and the original text in Spanish is not easy to find.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Pax Vobis on January 11, 2024, 11:10:26 AM

Quote
I have learned that the Church does not allow receiving probable sacraments.(https://www.cathinfo.com/Smileys/classic/confused1.gif)
Yep.  Canon Law forbids attending "probable" or "very probably valid" masses/sacraments.  Fr Calderon's study and conclusion is wrong.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Texana on January 11, 2024, 11:28:21 AM
Yep.  Canon Law forbids attending "probable" or "very probably valid" masses/sacraments.  Fr Calderon's study and conclusion is wrong.
Amen!
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 11, 2024, 05:58:36 PM

Also, the risk of an invalid absolution seems to be very serious to me, since it could change the eternal destiny of a soul.

And it is good to know that the SSPX is not responsible for the priesthood exercised in their chapels.
He is talking about absolution in a case of NECESSITY, e.g. danger of death with no other priest available.

It's a good point you raise, but I think from the context he is not approving these priests offering public Masses and giving the sacraments in SSPX 'houses', only private Masses, thus the responsibility for of the SSPX for souls is not being engaged.

When he says 'occasionally attend their Masses or receive communion' I get the impression he means for 'a proportionally grave reason' rather than on an ad hoc basis.

Everything needs to be read in context:

As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new Episcopal Consecrations, the one that the Society has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally assist at the Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive Communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own houses. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning their exercise of the priesthood. And the remote risk that one communion or one absolution may be invalid is not so serious
.
2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent our having certainty of its validity, it seems to us - until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by New Bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the Sacraments (33).

Father Alvaro Calderon



Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Giovanni Berto on January 11, 2024, 06:09:22 PM
He is talking about absolution in a case of NECESSITY, e.g. danger of death with no other priest available.

It's a good point you raise, but I think from the context he is not approving these priests offering public Masses and giving the sacraments in SSPX 'houses', only private Masses, thus the responsibility for of the SSPX for souls is not being engaged.

When he says 'occasionally attend their Masses or receive communion' I get the impression he means for 'a proportionally grave reason' rather than on an ad hoc basis.

Everything needs to be read in context:

As for the practical attitude to be taken with regard to the new Episcopal Consecrations, the one that the Society has maintained up to now seems to us to be justified:

1. The very probable validity of the rite seems to us to make it morally acceptable to occasionally assist at the Mass (traditional rite) celebrated by a priest or a bishop ordained or consecrated in the new rite, and even to receive Communion therein; it seems to us acceptable, in case of necessity, to receive absolution from them; to treat them as priests and bishops and not as laymen in costume; it seems to us acceptable to allow them to celebrate in our own houses. For the shadows that hover over the validity of their priesthood are but shadows and in all these activities our responsibility is not engaged concerning their exercise of the priesthood. And the remote risk that one communion or one absolution may be invalid is not so serious
.
2. But the positive and objective defects from which this rite suffers, which prevent our having certainty of its validity, it seems to us - until there is a Roman judgement, for which many things would have to change - justify and make necessary the conditional reordination of priests ordained by New Bishops and, if necessary, the conditional reconsecration of these bishops. Such doubts cannot be tolerated at the very root of the Sacraments (33).

Father Alvaro Calderon




As I see it, he says one thing on number 1, and another on number 2.

Considering the greater picture, so to speak, and not just this text, it seems to me that Fr. Calderon cannot abstain from saying number 2, as his conscience would probably be troubled, but, as he is an SSPX priest, he is bound to say number 1, otherwise, he would be shown exit the door.

All the same, the SSPX praxis is to completely ignore number 2.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Twice dyed on January 11, 2024, 06:35:06 PM
Yes, from 2014.

It has never been translated into English as far as I am aware, and the original text in Spanish is not easy to find.
It is on the Non Possumus web site. A link brings you to a page called Scribd. But you have to sign in using Google Acc't, or Apple. to download the article.   https://www.scribd.com/docuмent/270396261/Consagraciones-Episcopales-de-Pablo-VI-P-Calderon
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Plenus Venter on January 11, 2024, 09:27:50 PM
As I see it, he says one thing on number 1, and another on number 2.

Considering the greater picture, so to speak, and not just this text, it seems to me that Fr. Calderon cannot abstain from saying number 2, as his conscience would probably be troubled, but, as he is an SSPX priest, he is bound to say number 1, otherwise, he would be shown exit the door.

All the same, the SSPX praxis is to completely ignore number 2.
Yes Giovanni, that is why it is so important to make this study known and get an English translation in circulation. Remember it was written in 2014 before the Huonder scandal. I was recently talking to an SSPX priest who was shocked when he heard Fr Calderon's conclusion, he thought the NREC was held by the SSPX to be CERTAINLY valid. Fr Calderon's superiors asked him to do the study, but they don't seem to like his conclusion so they have essentially buried it. It didn't make headlines in the Angelus like Fr Pierre-Marie's study.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: ElwinRansom1970 on January 11, 2024, 10:31:57 PM
My opinion regarding validity of FORM for Novus Ordo Sacraments as presented in the Latin typical editions:
1. Baptism - valid
2. Confirmation - probably valid
3. Eucharist - valid
4. Penance - valid
5. Extreme Unction - probably valid
6. Matrimony - valid
7. Holy Orders
          A. Deacon- valid
          B. Priest - probably valid
          C. Bishop - doubtfully valid
              (leaning probably invalid)

7C has serious ramifications on the validity of the actual administration of 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: Ladislaus on January 12, 2024, 06:43:21 AM
My opinion regarding validity of FORM for Novus Ordo Sacraments as presented in the Latin typical editions:
1. Baptism - valid
2. Confirmation - probably valid
3. Eucharist - valid
4. Penance - valid
5. Extreme Unction - probably valid
6. Matrimony - valid
7. Holy Orders
          A. Deacon- valid
          B. Priest - probably valid
          C. Bishop - doubtfully valid
              (leaning probably invalid)

7C has serious ramifications on the validity of the actual administration of 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7.

I would agree with all these except for ...

3. Eucharist -- possibly valid
7B. Priest -- probably invalid

Now, with 3, before they restored the "for many" translation of the words of consecration, I would have held it to be almost certainly invalid.  Of course, you mentioned the Latin Typical editions.  I knew one Jesuit priest at Loyola University in Chicago who refused to do the New Mass in anything but Latin because he felt that the "for all" invalidated the Mass.  Now that this has been corrected, I hold that he Mass may possibly be valid (provided a valid priest and the cascading effects of 7C, as you mentioned), but IMO highly unlikely due to the major change in the adjuncta.  They have changed the Mass extensively with the intent of stripping out most references to Sacrifice, and the Offertory has been completely perverted, being replaced (blasphemously) with a slight variation on a тαℓмυdic "blessing" and with zero reference to the Holy Sacrifice.  In general, their "Anaphora I" (first Canon) is in fact (in Latin) nearly identical to the Tridentine Canon, but IMO the vitiation/destruction of a Catholic Offertory suffices to render the entire thing invalid ex adjunctis, as per the reasoning of Pope Leo XIII regarding the Anglican Orders.

I find it very suspicious that they finally restored the "pro multis" / "for many" after the great majority of priests who were ordained by a bishop who was consecrated in the Traditional Rite had retired or passed away.

With regard to 7B (Priest), that minor change of removing the "ut" is also highly suspicious because it's just one two-letter word.  How would removing that word somehow make the form somehow more "relevant" and "modern"?  It would hardly be noticed by most.  But, as Pius XII taught in Sacramentum Ordinis, the two key aspects of the essential form are the invocation of the Holy Spirit and mention of the Sacramental effect.  While both remain, it's now unclear that the Holy Spirit is being invoked to produce the Sacramental effect, with the removal of ut severing the causality between the two.

[Heavily Paraphrased]
Old:  "May the Holy Spirit come down upon him to make him a priest."
New:  "May the Holy Spirit come down up him.  May he become a priest."

One might say that it's still implied, but it's rather equivocal, for the Holy Spirit can be invoked for any number of reasons.  Is the Holy Spirit being invoked to give him the proper dispositions or the graces of state, or to actually produce the Sacramental effect?  It's not entirely clear, and it needs to be unequivocal in order to assure validity.
Title: Re: Validity of the New Sacramental Rites
Post by: 2Vermont on January 12, 2024, 06:46:40 AM
My opinion regarding validity of FORM for Novus Ordo Sacraments as presented in the Latin typical editions:
1. Baptism - valid
2. Confirmation - probably valid
3. Eucharist - valid
4. Penance - valid
5. Extreme Unction - probably valid
6. Matrimony - valid
7. Holy Orders
          A. Deacon- valid
          B. Priest - probably valid
          C. Bishop - doubtfully valid
              (leaning probably invalid)

7C has serious ramifications on the validity of the actual administration of 2, 3, 4, 5 & 7.
Which, when all is said and done, is the only thing that matters at this point in the game.  Without valid bishops, there are barely any valid sacraments.