Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: An even Seven

Quote from: Stubborn

We are not the popes' judges. We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, but we are not allowed, as the pope’s subjects, to do anything about his status. We certainly are not authorized to go around trying to convince other Catholics that the man in office is not in office as if it is a teaching of the Church and as if it is our duty to do so.

No one on earth can Judge the Pope. When a man is a heretic he cannot be elected pope. If he is in office he loses his office if he becomes a heretic. He in effect judges himself.
Are we authorized to tell people that the Pope is a heretic but still pope? Are we authorized to say that the Pope is head of the Catholic Church and an evil, counter-church at the same time?

That's right, you got it - we have nothing to say about his status. We are not his  judges. We can judge for our own sake that a heresy has been publicly pronounced, but we are not allowed to do anything about his status, not one single solitary thing. We certainly are not authorized to go around trying to convince other Catholics that the man in office is not in office as if it is a teaching of the Church and as if it is our duty to do so.

You will never find any magisterial teaching that gives anyone in the world the right to do what sedevacantists do, even though they do so as if what they do is a teaching of the Church.

He will be judged alone, naked and accused before God the same as everyone of us by his only superior in this world or the next. He will receive his eternal reward or his eternal punishment same us the rest of us. Like us, he will be able to blame no one for what he did. Our responsibility lies in persevering in the Catholic faith right up until our dying breath whether the pope does or not.

Exactly and when someone is a heretic we condemn them as such and refuse communion with that person. We should never tell someone that this person can be in and head the Catholic Church and an evil false Church at the same time because that would mean the Gates of Hell have prevailed. The Church is ONE in faith. We MUST have the same faith as the POPE.

The the pope is a heretic and the gates of hell have not prevailed. St. Athanasius said “The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.” St. John Chrysostom said “I do not think there are many among Bishops that will be saved, but many more that perish.” - and the gates of hell have not prevailed nor will they ever. Can you imagine how many bishops that ended up in hell over the centuries and are still going there? Can the same be said of popes? - we do not know nor is it our business to know.

"We" do not condemn the pope because that is not our job, that's God's job. Sedevacantists in vain choose to presume to do God's job for him. But our job is to get to heaven - which we can well do whether the pope is a heretic or a non-pope or not, or a courageous holy pope or not. Sedevacantists apparently don't believe this, which explains why they choose to focus on the distraction in the first place.  

Do you think your salvation is wholly dependent upon the "pope problem"? Do you not realize that if you end up in hell, you will have no one to blame but yourself? The same goes for me, the same goes for every soul in hell and every soul that will ever go there - and all the souls in hell all fully understand this because it is said to be their greatest suffering. Not one person in hell is able to blame another, not even an anti-pope for their eternal fate.

You say "we must have the same faith as the pope" - but this is a half truth. Because you did not finish your statement, it can be a source of scandal in this day and age. But apparently sedevacantists believe this statement is wholly complete, that it is a doctrine and that's all there is to it. But you need to complete the statement in order for it to make sense to confused Catholics.

ALL of these statements by you show without a doubt, that you don't have ANY idea what One Faith and the Unity of Church is. It also shows you have no idea why it is that people are sedevacantist.

All of those statements show is that my salvation is not dependent upon whether the pope is a heretic or a non pope or not.

I fully understand why people are sedevacantist, it is the sedevacantists who do not understand that, aside from praying for him, there is nothing anyone can do about a heretic pope - the proof for this is that we've had heretic popes for the last 50 years and no one, certainly not the sedevacantists, have done a thing about it. They certainly don't understand that they are risking their eternity on their private opinion no matter how often it is argued.

See, this is what's crazy - you speak of unity, but there can be no unity if you separate yourself from everyone else by believing we've been without a pope for +50 years - the sedevacantists have proved this fact by separating themselves from other trads. These days, the sedevacantists have their own churches, their own seminaries, their own schools, their own Masses, their own bishops, their own teachings and their own beliefs. That's unity?

This quote form Satis Cognitum explicitly refutes your erroneous idea that "once a Catholic, always a Catholic". Then to further prove your misunderstanding of the quote, you inserted and highlighted the word "no" as if that proved your point. The soul of the Church does not follow the former member out of the Church when the member is in heresy. So you are right that the answer to this rhetorical question is no, but it only proves that the unity of faith remains intact no matter how many people leave the Church through heresy.

Once a Catholic always a Catholic is just as certain as once a priest always a priest because even an "excommunicated heretic ex-Catholic non-member" is encouraged to be absolved for his sins in the sacrament of penance, which is the only means for forgiveness - and is only open to Catholics. First, he is absolved from every bond of excommunication, then he is absolved from his sins.

It may surprise lay readers to learn that in the traditional formula of absolution in the Sacrament of Penance there is a general absolution from the censures of the Church. This means, of course, that everyone who has received a censure, and everyone who is "under a censure," is a Catholic, since he goes to confession to seek its removal. (Not surprisingly, all mention of censures has been dropped in the Conciliar "Rite of Reconciliation.") Thus:

"May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you: and I, by His authority, absolve you from every bond of excommunication, (suspension), and interdict, in so far as I am able and you are needful. Next, I absolve you from your sins, in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen."
(The word suspensionis {suspension} is used only for clerics. A cleric may be suspended without being excommunicated; but, should he incur excommunication, he is suspended also.)

(a) Interdiction: the removal of all faculties of the clergy of a place, or group of people (such as the priests of a religious community), so that the Mass and Sacraments are denied to them, except under certain specified conditions.  Interdiction is imposed either because all (or apparently all) who suffer it are involved to some degree in a grave sin, or it is imposed as a desperate measure on the faithful of a place because of the persistent, scandalous, and obstructive sins of those in authority over them, either civil or religious. In the latter case, the interdiction deprives the people of the Mass and the Sacraments, in order to provoke them to exert moral pressure on their superiors.

(b) Suspension: the prohibition of the right to exercise one's priestly (or episcopal) orders.

(c) Excommunication: exclusion from the communal life of the Church.

It proves that if the Catholic becomes a Heretic he is no longer a Catholic because he no longer lives in the Body.
This proves that a heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church and cannot hold office in it.
I do think that this issue is critical because if one wants to go to heaven, one must believe in ALL the Teachings of the Church. This issue involves the Unity of Faith of all Christians (One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism). We can never be subject to a heretic because they do not have the same faith. They cannot lead us. Your opinion that we can be subject to and in communion with someone who does not share the Unity of Faith is evil.
We must adhere to all Dogmas to be saved and you deny the Unity of Faith which is what is meant by being subject to the Roman Pontiff.
Read the entire encyclical "Satis Cognitum" if you want to have an understanding of this issue.

Ok, for the sake of argument, let's say I agree wholeheartedly that the pope is a heretic, therefore not a Catholic therefore not the pope.

I can still make it to heaven. My salvation is not dependent upon whether the pope is the pope or not. Since it is certain that I can still make it to heaven regardless of papal validity or invalidity, it is possible for everyone. Please explain why your salvation is dependent upon the pope.

None of those quotes (and there is no Church teaching that) gives anyone the authority or permission to declare the pope is not the pope, or that he was never elected based on their knowledge of his sins.



 

Again, none of those quotes gives anyone the authority or permission to declare the pope is not the pope.

The only thing we are told we can do about it is that we may contradict him, that is the direction Pope Paul IV gave to us in cuм ex.

Beyond that, there is no Church teaching that vindicates sedevacantism.

I do not necessarily disagree with you on the points you made, the thing you are missing is that he did not give anyone permission, nor did he make anyone responsible for declaring the pope was not the pope or that he was never elected.

For whatever reason, sedevacantists believe it is their duty to declare the pope is not the pope and that he was never elected, but this is something they do not have any authority to do, which makes the whole idea meaningless, a "tinkling symbol", a colossal waste of time because there is nothing anyone can actually do about it even if true, and the sedevacantist opinion goes against the dogma that we must be subject to him, therefore sedevacantists needlessly risk their salvation.

I said they needlessly risk salvation because one can remain a subject to even the worst modernist heretic of a pope imaginable, and still get to heaven. But per the dogma, one cannot get to heaven without being subject to him - the odds of sedevacantists being wrong are too high, even if there's only one chance in a billion that the sedevacantists are wrong, that's too high and needlessly risks your eternity on an opinion.  

According to cuм ex, the only thing anyone can actually do about a heretic pope is "contradict him". This, according to cuм ex, anyone can do because he did not specifically appoint anyone in particular - least ways not according to the translations I've seen.

From an earlier post:

Would you like to know what contradicting a heretical pope means? Below is the best definition of contradicting a heretical pope is that I know of. In my opinion, THIS is what Pope Paul IV meant. This is the Catholic reaction to the situation.

Also, although it might have changed nothing, consider what the situation could be today if this would have actually happened at/after V2, or even today - from Who Shall Ascend?.........

However, even though the hierarchy cannot take legal action against an heretical pope, all of them together, or any one of them in particular, can condemn his teaching; they can accuse him before God's tribunal, warn him of his sins, and remind him of the divine wrath. Should this measure fail to produce any correction, they can denounce him before his subjects, the Catholic faithful, and warn them that they are not to listen to his teaching. Indeed, not only may the prelates of the Church do this, they have a most serious obligation to do it, an obligation which is as grave as the heresies are pernicious and scandalous. And if they fail to do this, they become a party to the pope's crimes, and will most certainly share in his punishment.

Moreover, where the bishops default in their solemn duty to protect the Church and God's Little Sheep, the priests and the laypeople have not the right, but the duty, to raise their voices against an heretical pontiff. They not only raise their voices to God in prayer for the misguided man, but they also speak out to the bishops and the priests, and among themselves so as to warn their brothers and sisters in Christ that the plague of heresy has infected even their Holy Father, and has rendered him dangerous and unclean.

You are stuck on "pope is a heretic therefore not the pope without out regard to the fat that it is not our right as subjects of the pope to pronounce him deposed. You believe it is our duty to pronounce him deposed. You are wrong here.

Whether the pope is knowingly a heretic, very simply, we are unable to say.  Judging the pope a heretic, is a judgement upon the pope, yet the pope can be judged by "none in this world". Here, the sedevacantists depose him for heresy then say they are judging a man, not a pope - as if they can judge even a man, which they can't, but apparently, none of this matters. This particular conundrum might be the worst defense the sedevacantists have in their attempt to vindicate their opinion.

Whether the pope loses his office because of his public heresy, we are not allowed, as the pope’s subjects, to do anything about his status. While the sedevacantists do not actually 'do' anything, they not only depose the pope in their judgement, they also try to bind us to their judgement.

"They teach heresy in the OUM and the Solemn Magisterium through VII." - This is not true but it is this wrong thinking which is based on the false premise of infallibility, that helps fuel sedevacantism.

you needlessly put your salvation at risk  believing a non catholic is leader of the Church of Christ

you needlessly put your salvation at risk  believing a non catholic is leader of the Church of Christ

The legitimacy (or lack of it) of the pope does not bear on our religious obligations, our religious obligations are no different whether the pope is legal or illegal.