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Author Topic: On sede-agnosticism or doubtism  (Read 2848 times)

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Offline Clemens Maria

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On sede-agnosticism or doubtism
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2016, 01:10:38 PM »
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  • "By their fruits you shall know them."

    We can all see how rotten are the fruits of the Conciliar church.  Even the Conciliar conservatives are horrified by the current claimant to the papacy.  But didn't JP2 himself say that there was a great silent apostasy?  So even by their own admission, the fruits are rotten.  Don't be dragged into the silent apostasy.  Stay away from the Conciliar church.  It is a false church, having new invalid sacraments, new evil liturgies, new false laws and discipline.  All the members of the Conciliar church will inevitably be formed into the vision of its leaders.  Do you want J. Bergoglio to be your model for living the Catholic faith?  Stay away.

    Offline Nishant

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    On sede-agnosticism or doubtism
    « Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 03:00:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Clemens Maria
    they are not true apostolic successors. This will be confirmed not by sedevacantists in the midst of the current crisis but by a true Catholic pope


    But, Clemens, if they are not Successors to the Apostles, which sees established by St. Peter or the Apostles can you point to today where Apostolic succession is continued and has been from the time of the Apostles? Secondly, you speak of a future Pope, which Cardinals will elect him? The ones appointed by the last few Popes? Thirdly, you say the see is vacant, which Bishops will declare authoritatively in a General Council that the See is vacant before that? The ones who have resigned their dioceses? This manner of proceeding throws up more questions than answers.

    The principle taught by the Fathers is certain, to identify the true Church look for Apostolic and especially Petrine succession. Once the true Church is identified, when we try to make sense of the reality we see around us, we recall it can sometimes happen that there are many unorthodox prelates in the Church - as there were in Arian times - these must be deposed by a competent authority. We can remain united to a Cardinal Burke or Sarah while waiting for God to sort the rest out.


    Offline Clemens Maria

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    On sede-agnosticism or doubtism
    « Reply #17 on: October 17, 2016, 04:30:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    Quote from: Clemens Maria
    they are not true apostolic successors. This will be confirmed not by sedevacantists in the midst of the current crisis but by a true Catholic pope


    But, Clemens, if they are not Successors to the Apostles, which sees established by St. Peter or the Apostles can you point to today where Apostolic succession is continued and has been from the time of the Apostles? Secondly, you speak of a future Pope, which Cardinals will elect him? The ones appointed by the last few Popes? Thirdly, you say the see is vacant, which Bishops will declare authoritatively in a General Council that the See is vacant before that? The ones who have resigned their dioceses? This manner of proceeding throws up more questions than answers.

    The principle taught by the Fathers is certain, to identify the true Church look for Apostolic and especially Petrine succession. Once the true Church is identified, when we try to make sense of the reality we see around us, we recall it can sometimes happen that there are many unorthodox prelates in the Church - as there were in Arian times - these must be deposed by a competent authority. We can remain united to a Cardinal Burke or Sarah while waiting for God to sort the rest out.


    It is a mystery, Nishant.  In the year 1 BC did anyone besides Our Lady know with certainty where the line of David was to be found?  And yet not long after the Angel Gabriel announced to the Blessed Virgin, "[31] Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. [32] He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. [33] And of his kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke 1)

    As for your principal to identify the true Church, it would work perfectly fine if there was a true pope but in the present crisis where the only man claiming to be pope is a manifest heretic by almost any sane accounting of the situation, it is merely begging the question.  When there is a claimant to the Holy See who actually makes at least a token attempt to adhere to Catholic teaching then maybe we can discuss.  But until then, there is no way to reconcile the current claimant with traditional ecclesiology.  All attempts break down because no theologian ever considered the situation where the only claimant would be a heretic.  They did consider the situation where a claimant would fall into heresy and be recognized as such by the cardinals but they never considered what would happen if there was a Great Apostasy where the vast majority of Catholics are led into error.

    If you are sincere, Nishant, you should recognize that there is nothing inherently dangerous in continuing to adhere to traditional Catholic teaching during such a confusing crisis.  The only danger would be for people who are tempted to throw aside Catholic teaching.  I think there are people holding all the 3 positions which you mentioned above who are tempted to throw aside Catholic teaching.  So it's not the position you take which is the determinant factor in whether your faith will survive.  It is your love for Our Lord and His doctrine which will be the determining factor.  I personally think that all those who persevere in praying the daily Rosary will be protected from falling too far into error and becoming separated from the Church.  That being said, those who do hold errors such as rejecting the infallibility of canonizations are putting themselves in danger.  Prior to V2, who would have doubted a canonization?  Let's not try to shoehorn the facts of the Conciliar revolution into traditional Catholic teaching.  Nothing that is happening today in the Conciliar church has any relation to traditional Catholic doctrine.  At best it is Anglican but usually it is Unitarian Universalist and sometimes it is quite satanic.  Whatever it is, it is not Catholic.

    Offline snowball

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    On sede-agnosticism or doubtism
    « Reply #18 on: October 18, 2016, 11:18:30 AM »
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  • I've read Bp. Williamson's Eleison Comment this month pertaining
    to sedevacantism, and watched Bp. Sanborn's retort which is
    on You Tube.

    Bp. Sanborn still tries to maintain that the truth is always
    black or white, never gray. He says only our perceptions
    of truth may be gray. That works with plain or higher truths
    but not with human organizations. I agree with W. that
    the Church is in a current state of gray. Yes, of course the
    Church is a divine institution, however, Sanborn raises the
    indefectibility of the Church to such a high standard that
    defies historical fact. I would not be surprised if Sanborn
    would have been a sedevacantist numerous times in the
    Church's history, not just today.

    Bp. Sanborn does not sufficiently address this, and he
    falsely equates W.'s metaphor of Islam and Protestantism
    to Vatican II, however, Bp. Williamson was not comparing
    Islam or Protestantism to Vatican II at all, he was comparing
    them to sedevacantism ! Williamson says sedevacantism
    offends and attacks the Papacy more than these, because
    unlike Islam and Protestantism, sede's deny the very material
    personhood and status of the Pope.

    As has happened before, personally speaking here, I may
    drift to a sedevacantist leaning in the hot times when something
    offensive happens, but so far, I've reverted to the sedeprivationist
    outlook. Neither the Conciliar Church nor its popes have reached
    a level of apostasy, heresy or blasphemy so bad that it makes
    me truly convinced that what sits in Rome today IS NOT the
    Catholic Church.

    Offline snowball

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    On sede-agnosticism or doubtism
    « Reply #19 on: October 19, 2016, 08:56:47 AM »
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  • Quote from: GJC

    Then nothing will convince you then!


    That is not the case.