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Author Topic: The Heretical Pope Fallacy  (Read 73672 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #205 on: January 08, 2018, 03:31:25 PM »
Pax, please re-read the previous citation I made from Msgr. Fenton regarding the infallible safety of the Magisterium.

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It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneousThe infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility."

Offline Stubborn

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #206 on: January 08, 2018, 03:34:05 PM »
Well, Pax, I'm not sure what kind of Church you believe in.  Perhaps you could call it the Church of Stubborn.  But I don't believe in a Church whose Pope and Bishops could gather in Ecuмenical Council and teach to the Church a radically flawed ecclesiology and soteriology that we must reject in order to preserve our faith, and I don't believe in a Church where the Pope could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to our faith.  I don't believe in a Church where we must in conscience reject 50 years of their Magisterium and reject their Universal Discipline in order to save our souls.  It's really that simple.  Do I believe that every single little statement or sentence in every Ecuмenical Council must be regarded as infallible.  No, of course not.  But the whole thing is radically flawed and harmful to faith.  That is not compatible with the indefectibility of the Magisterium and of the Church.
You really don't know what you believe, hence, your "sededoubtism". If you actually lived your conviction, you would be a card carrying NOer.

As for the rest, it happened, believe it.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #207 on: January 08, 2018, 03:59:27 PM »
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Well, Pax, I'm not sure what kind of Church you believe in.  Perhaps you could call it the Church of Stubborn.  But I don't believe in a Church whose Pope and Bishops could gather in Ecuмenical Council and teach to the Church a radically flawed ecclesiology and soteriology that we must reject in order to preserve our faith, and I don't believe in a Church where the Pope could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to our faith.  I don't believe in a Church where we must in conscience reject 50 years of their Magisterium and reject their Universal Discipline in order to save our souls.  It's really that simple.  Do I believe that every single little statement or sentence in every Ecuмenical Council must be regarded as infallible.  No, of course not.  But the whole thing is radically flawed and harmful to faith.  That is not compatible with the indefectibility of the Magisterium and of the Church.
I get what you're saying; but I want to keep going down the road of distinguishment.  Your above comments are too general.  We have to look at the details.
For example, your statement:  and I don't believe in a Church where the Pope could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to our faith.

On the surface, any good catholic would say: "Heck yeah, that's impossible; it could never happen."  But, post V2 it did happen.  How can that be?  We have to distinguish between our general understanding of things and the actual, specific law of the Church.  "The devil's in the details".

The modernists issued a valid, legal missal (Paul VI's) which was promulgated (made law).  This missal did not violate Quo Primum (QP) because QP never outlawed a pope CREATING a new missal, it only outlawed USING any other missal than its own.  So, technically, Paul VI's missal was legal.  But...Paul VI could not FORCE anyone to use this missal (since QP was still in force).  This is why Paul VI's constitution did not specify that his missal
1) applied to the whole latin church, or anyone really.  He just said "here is my missal and start using it on the first sunday of Advent".
2) was authorized by his apostolic authority (he authorized the missal according to the authority of V2, which is circular logic),
3) had to be used, under any kind of penalty.  (there is no penalty in his constitution for those who ignore his missal, which is unlike any other missal constitution since QP).

So, in this example, we can see that TECHNICALLY the pope did promulgate a missal that was harmful to the faith.  BUT, the catch is that it was not obligatory.  A gray area of the law.
What the modernists have done is to split the 'letter' from the 'spirit' of the law.  This can be done legally, which is what the pharaisees did in Christ's day, but as St Paul said 'the letter of the law kills' if it does not have the spirit.  The novus ordo religion 'by the letter' can be argued to not have changed OFFICIALLY church law/teachings, even though, without the true spirit of the law, the novelties imposed lead to a destruction of the faith.  So, V2, while not TECHNICALLY against the 'letter' (because it's a fallible council) goes against the spirit because those who 'interpret' the council have a mind to destroy the faith.

The only way to look at this is through legal technicalities because the modernists are sons of the pharaisees, who were masters of the legal system, just as satan is the master of lies.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #208 on: January 08, 2018, 04:11:07 PM »
I get what you're saying; but I want to keep going down the road of distinguishment.  Your above comments are too general.  We have to look at the details.
For example, your statement:  and I don't believe in a Church where the Pope could promulgate a Rite of Mass that's harmful to our faith.
...
The only way to look at this is through legal technicalities because the modernists are sons of the pharaisees, who were masters of the legal system, just as satan is the master of lies.

But, that's my entire point.  It's only by getting mired down in technicalities can you lose sight of the big picture.  You won't address that big picture, so you head right back down to the details and technicalities.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: The Heretical Pope Fallacy
« Reply #209 on: January 08, 2018, 04:11:43 PM »
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If I can remain a Catholic in complete submission to the Church and follow her Universal Discipline, then I can simply critique those statements respectfully from within the Church. 
All trads are in complete (and perfect) submission to the laws of the Church and her Universal Discipline and thus, their crtiques are made from within the Church.
1.  Is the true mass outlawed?  No.  Can I attend it without sinning?  Yes.
2.  Do I have to attend the novus ordo, under pain of sin?  No.
3.  Do I have to accept V2, under pain of sin?  No.
4.  Is there any (even one) requirement of the V2 'church' that I must follow, which requires me to sin?  No.
5.  Is there any requirement of the pre-V2 Church which I am prevented from following by the V2 'church'?  No.

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If, however, I must refuse submission to the hierarchy that taught these things, then it's crossed the line into indefectibility.
The above questions apply here.  The new V2 'church' is all 'smoke and mirrors'.  The only penalty which can possibily exist is 'lack of jurisdiction' and this only applies to priests, not to the laity.  Since canon law allows for supplied jurisdiction in cases of emergency, and since the 'salvation of souls is the supreme law' then trads are within their rights to request and receive sacraments from non-doubtful priests.