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Author Topic: SSG School  (Read 7415 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: SSG School
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2022, 07:38:57 AM »
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  • While there was a significant house-cleaning and notable improvement, the CMRI has baggage by the truckload.  See Bp. Schuckardt.

    Yeah, given the early days of CMRI ... particularly related to its founder ... how can anyone claim that CMRI has no baggage unless they're deluded and in denial?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #31 on: May 21, 2022, 07:43:49 AM »
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  • The "stars" that left SSPX seem to have more baggage than CMRI (I’ve been on record saying if I had a vote for pope, it would be bishop Pivarunas.)  You can’t argue with CMRI's position on the liturgy and and I certainly hold the pure-sv position over the novel Material/Formal position.

    :facepalm:  +Pivarunas who denies EENS dogma and approves of NFP?  While he seems like a "nice guy," he's not really much of an intellectual.  Ah, the "PURE" SV position ... which is wrong.  Sedeprivationism makes the most sense by far, and it solves and puts to bed nearly all the legitimate objections to "pure" sedevacantism.

    CMRI has twice published an article:  "The Salvation of those Outside the Church" ... a DIRECT WORD FOR WORD contradiction of EENS dogma.  They don't even pay lip service to the dogmatic formula, pretending that, well, there are people who are outside the Church but really inside the Church, but rather contradict the dogmatic formula word for word.  They might as well have published an article entitled, "The Original Sin of Mary".

    EENS denial and the resultant ecclesiology (or partial belonging to the Church by non-Catholics) is absolutely at the root of the V2 ecclesiology, and if you believe as CMRI does about it, then there's absolutely zero justification for rejecting V2 as heretical.  When asked what's erroneous or heretical about V2, the first thing that comes out of most sedevacantists' mouth is the ecclesiology.  And yet they hold to principles that are identical to the foundations of V2 ecclesiology.


    Offline Vanguard

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #32 on: May 21, 2022, 12:20:14 PM »
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  • While I think that Ladislaus has some points, I also think that hitting Bishop Pivarunas on just being a nice guy without too much concern for dogma is misleading. 
    First off, I will state that I disagree with Bishop Pivarunas on EENS and BOD. However, I do think that his position has been taught through most of the 20th century in catechisms, etc. He is merely trying to uphold what he has learned. In addition, I think all of the other Sede and otherwise bishops believe the same thing. The CMRI is just more honest about it. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to see the contradiction in any of it. We can only pray for them. 
    Secondly, regarding NFP, it shouldn’t be considered in such a negative light IMO. We use breakthroughs in science all the time that allow for people to live longer e.g. dialysis, antibiotics, insulin etc. just to name a few of those from the 20th century. I don’t understand why we wouldn’t be able to use scientific knowledge for better regulation of birth, especially for those who may have extreme struggles and stress either with mental health issues or financial issues or physical issues. Yes, trust in God, but why not help yourself? I think Bishop Pivarunas is correct on this. 
    Finally, Bishop Pivarunas is a very nice person, his priests I’ve met are kind and helpful. He started and maintains a seminary, and some of his priests have weighed in on things like the vaccine that have been helpful and public. Jesus used fishermen, and figures like David to confound. I think we should pray for him and his priests to help them do the will of God. 

    Offline songbird

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #33 on: May 21, 2022, 05:05:18 PM »
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  • Vanguard:  I agree with your post.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #34 on: May 21, 2022, 07:47:57 PM »
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  • Yeah, given the early days of CMRI ... particularly related to its founder ... how can anyone claim that CMRI has no baggage unless they're deluded and in denial?
    Schuckhardt was expelled by the other clergy of the CMRI. I don't understand how the people currently in charge of the CMRI can be responsible for an evil that they actively drove out of their community.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #35 on: May 21, 2022, 08:19:45 PM »
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  • Schuckhardt was expelled by the other clergy of the CMRI. I don't understand how the people currently in charge of the CMRI can be responsible for an evil that they actively drove out of their community.

    Nobody says that current CMRI members are "responsible" for Shuckhardt.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #36 on: May 21, 2022, 08:32:19 PM »
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  • Nobody says that current CMRI members are "responsible" for Shuckhardt.
    I thought you said they had "baggage" from Schuckhardt.

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #37 on: May 21, 2022, 10:36:49 PM »
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  • I don't understand how the people currently in charge of the CMRI can be responsible for an evil that they actively drove out of their community.

    No, what you don't understand is that people can drive an evil out of their midst and yet still have baggage as a result of the intense, unsavory process.

    Some have argued that they should have changed their name from CMRI, as Schuckardt was far from the only one who left and, what is more, he was the founder.  New name, fresh start; old name, no fresh start?

    FWIW, I taught at the Mount and lived in the rectory (and also taught/lived at the minor seminary in ID, although briefly).  There's baggage.  There's also a lot of good.  Such is the case all throughout Traddieland. 
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Durango77

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #38 on: May 22, 2022, 01:16:15 AM »
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  • Schuckhardt was expelled by the other clergy of the CMRI. I don't understand how the people currently in charge of the CMRI can be responsible for an evil that they actively drove out of their community.
    People still bring up the schuckhardt stuff from over 40 years ago are just looking to detract from the CMRI.  

    Offline angelusmaria

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #39 on: May 22, 2022, 09:20:11 AM »
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  • People still bring up the schuckhardt stuff from over 40 years ago are just looking to detract from the CMRI. 
    100% agree.  Perhaps they would benefit from learning about the seriously dysfunctional origins of the Capuchins, far from being a Bella Riforma, was plagued with Lutherans, Joachimist Franciscan Spirituals, in-fighting and political intrigues.  Yet the early Capuchin Reform produced many saints, and for a while at least, righted itself.
    please pray for me

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #40 on: May 22, 2022, 06:00:29 PM »
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  • Some have argued that they should have changed their name from CMRI, as Schuckardt was far from the only one who left and, what is more, he was the founder.  New name, fresh start; old name, no fresh start?
    .

    It seems a little simplistic to say that they are not getting a new start if they don't change their name after expelling Schuckhardt. What is the basis of this idea? Moreover, their name is holy; they are named after Our Lady. Why would someone change that? It's not like they're called the Schuckhardtites, or the "Brethren of Sodom", or something else objectionable.

    It's just an ad hoc assertion to say that they have some sort of obligation to change their name.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #41 on: May 22, 2022, 07:29:45 PM »
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  • I thought you said they had "baggage" from Schuckhardt.

    I don't understand why you equate having "baggage" with being "responsible" for it.  GV explained the different quite well.

    It's like a stain or a taint on the orgazation.  They should have dissolved the original CMRI, tweaked the name, and formed a new organization.  It's not unlike with Maciel and The Legionaries.  Religious Congregations typically take pride in their founder and take their spirit from their founder.  Very often Rome would evaluate the virtues of a congregation's or religious order's founder before giving approbation to it.

    I know several SV priests (one now a bishop) who didn't want to get involved with CMRI due to this tainted history, despite considering the Thuc line valid.

    Father Ripperger speaks of "generational (evil) spirits" that can stay with family line, and the abhorrent sins of Shuckhardt probably still haunt the CMRI.  They need to make a clean break from that guy.

    People associate religious groups with their founders.  Who doesn't think of St. Ignatius when the Jesuits are mentioned?  What if it had later been revealed that Ignatius had been a sodomite and a pedophile rapist?  I'm pretty sure the Jesuits would have ceased to exist within minutes of the revelation.  Who would then have ever been able to have respect for the Jesuits ever again?  Anti-Catholics would use it as ammunition with which to attack the Church.  Similarly, it's impossible for people to have any respect for CMRI because of Shuckhardt.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #42 on: May 22, 2022, 08:20:43 PM »
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  • I don't understand why you equate having "baggage" with being "responsible" for it.  GV explained the different quite well.

    It's like a stain or a taint on the orgazation.  Very often Rome would evaluate the virtues of a congregation's or religious order's founder before giving approbation to it.

    You're the one claiming the organization has a stain. I am asking why it has one, and I haven't heard a real answer yet.

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    They should have dissolved the original CMRI, tweaked the name, and formed a new organization.

    And what would that change, exactly? Same people, same rule, just different name? That would make a huge difference? You're saying they should have gone through some legal fiction of changing their name, and that would have made a huge change in the organization. I don't see why. Changing the name of an organization is just a legal fiction, and their name was beautiful to begin with, since it was the name of Mary.

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    Religious Congregations typically take pride in their founder and take their spirit from their founder.

    Evidently the CMRI doesn't, though, since they drove their founder out.

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    I know several SV priests (one now a bishop) who didn't want to get involved with CMRI due to this tainted history, despite considering the Thuc line valid.


    You are being a little naive here. Their motive is one of competition and clerical politics, not one of principle.

    Quote
    Father Ripperger speaks of "generational (evil) spirits" that can stay with family line, and the abhorrent sins of Shuckhardt probably still haunt the CMRI.  They need to make a clean break from that guy.


    They have already, by driving him out and suing him to gain legal control of the properties. Schuckhardt died forgotten, alone and disgraced, with a couple of fanatical adherents who followed him despite his rejection by the community, while the rest of the CMRI went on to cleanse their organization and has gone from strength to strength ever since. And by the way, Fr. Ripperger is first of all not a valid priest, and secondly he is a purveyor of charismatic "spirituality" and superstition at best, and a simple warlock at worst.

    Quote
    People associate religious groups with their founders.  Who doesn't think of St. Ignatius when the Jesuits are mentioned?  What if it had later been revealed that Ignatius had been a sodomite and a pedophile rapist?  I'm pretty sure the Jesuits would have ceased to exist within minutes of the revelation.  Who would then have ever been able to have respect for the Jesuits ever again?  Anti-Catholics would use it as ammunition with which to attack the Church.  Similarly, it's impossible for people to have any respect for CMRI because of Shuckhardt.

    If it's not enough for you that the CMRI priests drove out their founder to live out his life in oblivion and disgrace, then I don't know what you want. If you don't have respect for people who drive evildoers out of their community, then that is a poor reflection on you, not the people you for whom you have contempt.




    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #43 on: May 22, 2022, 10:01:09 PM »
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  • What is the basis of this idea?

    It's just an ad hoc assertion to say that they have some sort of obligation to change their name.

    I asked a question, presuming all who read it would understand and take it as such.  Apparently I was mistaken.  C'est la vie; life is too busy and too short for me to care too much about it.

    I made no assertions of any kind, ad hoc or otherwise, respecting anyone's obligations to do anything whatsoever, so your comment is utterly meaningless.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: SSG School
    « Reply #44 on: May 22, 2022, 10:10:19 PM »
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  • People still bring up the schuckhardt stuff from over 40 years ago are just looking to detract from the CMRI. 

    Someone (LoT) posited the notion that CMRI has no baggage.  Anyone with even a superficial knowledge of the history of the CMRI knows that isn't true.  No one is saying the proverbial house was not thoroughly cleansed, etc., or that they are not doing a great deal of good in the oft-bewildering world of Traddieland, but stating an historical fact is not detraction in any way, shape or form.  I am sorry if you are unable or unwilling, for whatever reason, to understand and accept this indisputable fact.  Godspeed in the wild, difficult days to come.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."