Author Topic: Sedevacantists please respond (Read 4675 times)

Ambrose · « **Reply #30 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:26:17 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Ambrose

Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.

Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?

This is beside the point. Do you agree that there is no official binding interpretation of prophesy?

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #31 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:32:50 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote
Unfortunately you do not discern between a mere ordinary private revelation and an authentic prophecy of a Church approved apparition. I showed aready in two Scripture verses that as Catholics we are obliged to prove and hold prophecy. All prophecies come through a private revelation of some sort. There would be no prophecy if all people thought like you. Many in the conciliar Church think the same way. Many perished by dismissing prophecies of the Old Testament prophets as mere private revelations. Many in this age have already perished and will perish by not heeding Our Lady's prophecies through her blessed seers.

Even an approved apparition is not part of the Deposit of Faith.

But, as I said before, there is no official interpretation of The prophesies as given in the apparitions of Our L any or of the saints. A Catholic is not bound to conclude that the prophesy relates to our times, or any specific time.

Its not just an approved apparition. It is prophetic. It must be proved and held.

[19] Extinguish not the spirit. [20] Despise not prophecies. [21] But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thes 5:19-21

Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?

Ambrose · « **Reply #32 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:41:01 AM »

Quote

Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?

I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.

My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #33 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:43:10 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ambrose

Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.

Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?

This is beside the point. Do you agree that there is no official binding interpretation of prophesy?

Just because the Church does not bind the consciences of the faithful to a given interpretation, does not mean that the faithful are not obliged to prove the interpretation that is given. Do you believe the Church would directly contradict 1 Thes 5:19-21.

Ambrose · « **Reply #34 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:46:54 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ambrose

Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.

Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?

This is beside the point. Do you agree that there is no official binding interpretation of prophesy?

Just because the Church does not bind the consciences of the faithful to a given interpretation, does not mean that the faithful are not obliged to prove the interpretation that is given. Do you believe the Church would directly contradict 1 Thes 5:19-21.

The Church would never contradict scripture. It is impossible.

If you want to believe that a certain prophesy relates to our times, you have the right to do so, but what you cannot do is state your interpretation as a point of belief that Catholics must believe.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #35 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:56:34 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote
Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?

I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.

My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.

We must, however, prove the prophecy. That is the point of this thread. I am challenging you do disprove my interpretation. 1 Thes 5:19-21 says we cannot despise (dismiss) prophecy as a mere private revelation and not attempt to prove it (as you are doing). Also, if you say it can't be proven, then you contradict Scripture which says we are to prove prophecy. If you are satisfied with your interpretation of two revolts, then I cannot help you. If you are not satisfied, you are not obliged to merely dismiss prophecy as a private revelation (despise it).

Ambrose · « **Reply #36 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:02:38 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote
Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?

I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.

My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.

We must, however, prove the prophecy. That is the point of this thread. I am challenging you do disprove my interpretation. 1 Thes 5:19-21 says we cannot despise (dismiss) prophecy as a mere private revelation and not attempt to prove it (as you are doing). Also, if you say it can't be proven, then you contradict Scripture which says we are to prove prophecy. If you are satisfied with your interpretation of two revolts, then I cannot help you. If you are not satisfied, you are not obliged to merely dismiss prophecy as a private revelation (despise it).

Please cite from any approved moralist to support for your assertions.

1. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to "prove prophesy."
2. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to believe in private revelation, or non-authoritative interpretations of prophecy.

Since you assert these things, the onus remains on you to prove them.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #37 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:12:20 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote
Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?

I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.

My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.

We must, however, prove the prophecy. That is the point of this thread. I am challenging you do disprove my interpretation. 1 Thes 5:19-21 says we cannot despise (dismiss) prophecy as a mere private revelation and not attempt to prove it (as you are doing). Also, if you say it can't be proven, then you contradict Scripture which says we are to prove prophecy. If you are satisfied with your interpretation of two revolts, then I cannot help you. If you are not satisfied, you are not obliged to merely dismiss prophecy as a private revelation (despise it).

Please cite from any approved moralist to support for your assertions.

1. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to "prove prophesy."
2. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to believe in private revelation, or non-authoritative interpretations of prophecy.

Since you assert these things, the onus remains on you to prove them.

Please show where I have said that a mere private revelation had to be believed? This was purely made up on your part.

As far as prophecy needing to be proved, I gave you Sacred Scripture itself! Is 1 Thes 5:19-21 so ambiguous that it would need authoritative interpretation from the Church? If so, I submit to the Church when she is restored. Otherwise we are to interpret passages literally unless reason suggests otherwise (St. Augustine). We must prove prophecy.

TKGS · « **Reply #38 on:** October 07, 2013, 06:10:43 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...

"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)

What say you?

The suffering Pope Francis?

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #39 on:** October 07, 2013, 09:15:46 AM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...

"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)

What say you?

The suffering Pope Francis?

So his pontificate has ended?

TKGS · « **Reply #40 on:** October 07, 2013, 09:34:33 AM »

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam

Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...

"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)

What say you?

The suffering Pope Francis?

So his pontificate has ended?

It hasn't even begun. He's not a Catholic. I do believe the papacy will be restored one day. How? I don't know but it will likely, based on this prophesy, be very near the end of the world. I won't really try to fully understand the various prophesies of Our Lady, but clearly, the Church hasn't had a "suffering" pope for decades.

I'm just responding as you asked.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #41 on:** October 07, 2013, 01:55:42 PM »

As with "canonizations" I do not pay attention to apparitions after 1958.

Was Akita where the "seer" were walking up a rocky hill backwards with their heads tilted back? Sounds demonic.

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #42 on:** October 07, 2013, 02:57:01 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

As with "canonizations" I do not pay attention to apparitions after 1958.

Was Akita where the "seer" were walking up a rocky hill backwards with their heads tilted back? Sounds demonic.

So you don't pay attention to St. Padre Pio? And no, Akita was not the apparition to which you refer.

Ambrose · « **Reply #43 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:04:52 PM »

AJPM,

You are losing me here. You write in such a way that I can't make heads or tails out of your exact meaning.

1. Can you explain to me this obligation that you say we have to "prove prophecy." What is the exact nature of this obligation and who imposed it. Please cite approved sources.
2. You admit that Catholics are not bound by private revelation, it is good that this is clear. So what is your point then?
3. Do you believe that Catholics must believe a certain interpretation of words from scripture that has not yet been taught to us by the Church?

Ad Jesum per Mariam · « **Reply #44 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:11:59 PM »

Quote from: TKGS

Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Quote from: TKGS
Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...

"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)

What say you?

The suffering Pope Francis?

So his pontificate has ended?

It hasn't even begun. He's not a Catholic. I do believe the papacy will be restored one day. How? I don't know but it will likely, based on this prophesy, be very near the end of the world. I won't really try to fully understand the various prophesies of Our Lady, but clearly, the Church hasn't had a "suffering" pope for decades.

I'm just responding as you asked.

Pope John Paul II didn't suffer? An attempt wasn't made on his life? How about Pope John Paul I? Many believe he was poisoned. I would not doubt it. Pope John XXIII wanted to stop the council from his death bed according to some reports. Even from what is known to us, Popes have suffered. There may be much more unknown. Would people know how much you have suffered just be looking at a smiling picture of you? No. Therefore your picture and comments do not disprove the Our Lady was speaking about this time period at La Salette. This is the revolt spoken of by St. Paul, this is the time of darkness and the crisis Our Lady has spoke of. Then will come a period of peace if we are fortunate enough to see it. Then the antichrist.

[1]And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 2 The.s 2:1-3

Two revolts before the antichrist or one?