Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Ad Jesum per Mariam on October 06, 2013, 05:29:17 PM
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis[/u]. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
What say you?
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La Salette is approved .
False apparitions I dont comment on.
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There are probably better people to respond to this but here are my thoughts:
(a) I didn't think Akita was an approved apparition.
(b) Wrt La Salette, Our Lady does not say when this will happen to the Pope. This could be a future pope.
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La Salette is approved .
False apparitions I dont comment on.
So where is your comment on La Salette?
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There are probably better people to respond to this but here are my thoughts:
(a) I didn't think Akita was an approved apparition.
(b) Wrt La Salette, Our Lady does not say when this will happen to the Pope. This could be a future pope.
So the frightful crisis and the time of darkness is not now?
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"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
I don't see very much suffering among the Vatican II "popes." They think things are great and we are in some sort of great renewal.
It seems to me that this will more likely apply to a future pope. Lets face it, when a pope comes again and publicly professes the Catholic faith and morality, the world will hate him, persecute him, and in my opinion may try to kill him. This will also apply to all who stand with the Holy Father.
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
I will wait for a future Pope to order an investigation of Akita before giving it any credence. Paul VI was "pope" at that time and I do not trust him.
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There are probably better people to respond to this but here are my thoughts:
(a) I didn't think Akita was an approved apparition.
(b) Wrt La Salette, Our Lady does not say when this will happen to the Pope. This could be a future pope.
So the frightful crisis and the time of darkness is not now?
After reading through the whole message of Our Lady I would argue that much of what she talks about hasn't happened yet.
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"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
I don't see very much suffering among the Vatican II "popes." They think things are great and we are in some sort of great renewal.
It seems to me that this will more likely apply to a future pope. Lets face it, when a pope comes again and publicly professes the Catholic faith and morality, the world will hate him, persecute him, and in my opinion may try to kill him. This will also apply to all who stand with the Holy Father.
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
I will wait for a future Pope to order an investigation of Akita before giving it any credence. Paul VI was "pope" at that time and I do not trust him.
The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
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There are probably better people to respond to this but here are my thoughts:
(a) I didn't think Akita was an approved apparition.
(b) Wrt La Salette, Our Lady does not say when this will happen to the Pope. This could be a future pope.
So the frightful crisis and the time of darkness is not now?
After reading through the whole message of Our Lady I would argue that much of what she talks about hasn't happened yet.
So the crisis hasn't happened yet? The time of darkness hasn't happened yet? There was no attempt on John Paul II's life? We are not waiting and hoping for the triumph of the Church of God? Please explain.
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"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
I don't see very much suffering among the Vatican II "popes." They think things are great and we are in some sort of great renewal.
It seems to me that this will more likely apply to a future pope. Lets face it, when a pope comes again and publicly professes the Catholic faith and morality, the world will hate him, persecute him, and in my opinion may try to kill him. This will also apply to all who stand with the Holy Father.
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
I will wait for a future Pope to order an investigation of Akita before giving it any credence. Paul VI was "pope" at that time and I do not trust him.
The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
She says that one pope will have several attempts made on his one life. Has that happened yet? No.
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"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
I don't see very much suffering among the Vatican II "popes." They think things are great and we are in some sort of great renewal.
It seems to me that this will more likely apply to a future pope. Lets face it, when a pope comes again and publicly professes the Catholic faith and morality, the world will hate him, persecute him, and in my opinion may try to kill him. This will also apply to all who stand with the Holy Father.
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
I will wait for a future Pope to order an investigation of Akita before giving it any credence. Paul VI was "pope" at that time and I do not trust him.
The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
She says that one pope will have several attempts made on his one life. Has that happened yet? No.
Several visible and known attempts have not been made. That does not mean there has not been attempts made that are unknown to us. The Vicar also seems to be suffering due to the frightful crisis and persecution which lasts "for a while". Therefore it maybe referring to a series of Popes. Either way your reply does not not supply evidence for refuting my previous post.
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"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
I don't see very much suffering among the Vatican II "popes." They think things are great and we are in some sort of great renewal.
It seems to me that this will more likely apply to a future pope. Lets face it, when a pope comes again and publicly professes the Catholic faith and morality, the world will hate him, persecute him, and in my opinion may try to kill him. This will also apply to all who stand with the Holy Father.
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
I will wait for a future Pope to order an investigation of Akita before giving it any credence. Paul VI was "pope" at that time and I do not trust him.
The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
She says that one pope will have several attempts made on his one life. Has that happened yet? No.
Several visible and known attempts have not been made. That does not mean there has not been attempts made that are unknown to us. The Vicar also seems to be suffering due to the frightful crisis and persecution which lasts "for a while". Therefore it maybe referring to a series of Popes. Either way your reply does not not supply evidence for refuting my previous post.
OK, you're interpretation of the private revelation is correct. We're all wrong. Sedes are wrong.
that's what you wanted right?
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"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
I don't see very much suffering among the Vatican II "popes." They think things are great and we are in some sort of great renewal.
It seems to me that this will more likely apply to a future pope. Lets face it, when a pope comes again and publicly professes the Catholic faith and morality, the world will hate him, persecute him, and in my opinion may try to kill him. This will also apply to all who stand with the Holy Father.
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
I will wait for a future Pope to order an investigation of Akita before giving it any credence. Paul VI was "pope" at that time and I do not trust him.
The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
She says that one pope will have several attempts made on his one life. Has that happened yet? No.
Several visible and known attempts have not been made. That does not mean there has not been attempts made that are unknown to us. The Vicar also seems to be suffering due to the frightful crisis and persecution which lasts "for a while". Therefore it maybe referring to a series of Popes. Either way your reply does not not supply evidence for refuting my previous post.
OK, you're interpretation of the private revelation is correct. We're all wrong. Sedes are wrong.
that's what you wanted right?
If it is incorrect then just provide actual evidence. If not, then it shows pretty clearly that sedevacantism is false. Catholics cannot despise prophecy, rather we must prove it and hold it...
In all things give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you all. Extinguish not the spirit. Despise not prophecies. But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thes 5:18-21
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The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
First, prophesy cannot contradict theology. Also private revelation does not bind any Catholic.
Second, you are assuming that we are at the end. In my opinion, I do not believe this crisis will lead to the end of the world. Our Lady of Fatima said there would be a reign of peace, after Russia was consecrated by the pope in union with the bishops. That could not happen if we are at the end of the world.
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The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied.
Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2 Thes 2:3-5
As for not seeing the suffering, we did see an attempt on the life of John Paul II. John Paul I may have been murdered. John XXIII supposedly wanted the Vatican II council stopped on his death bed. Pope Benedict XVI abruptly retires. I do not think one can dismiss "off hand" suffering of the conciliar popes.
First, prophesy cannot contradict theology. Also private revelation does not bind any Catholic.
Second, you are assuming that we are at the end. In my opinion, I do not believe this crisis will lead to the end of the world. Our Lady of Fatima said there would be a reign of peace, after Russia was consecrated by the pope in union with the bishops. That could not happen if we are at the end of the world.
What theology is being contradicted. Please explain. Also, ordinary private revelation does not bind, but prophecy does (or we extinguish the Spirit). La Salette certainly qualifies as prophecy. What I am doing and what you are failing to do is to prove the prophecy (1 Thes 5:18-21). On top of that, I specifically said we were not at the end. You are not reading my posts carefully. I said there would be a period of peace, then the end. Here is what I said...
"The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied."
By you saying that our current crisis is not the crisis foretold by Our Lady of La Salette, you imply that there will be another crisis before the persecution of the antichrist. You have still not responded to that.
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La Salette is approved .
False apparitions I dont comment on.
So where is your comment on La Salette?
La Salette has come to pass in our day.
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There are probably better people to respond to this but here are my thoughts:
(a) I didn't think Akita was an approved apparition.
(b) Wrt La Salette, Our Lady does not say when this will happen to the Pope. This could be a future pope.
So the frightful crisis and the time of darkness is not now?
Bishop Williamson on LaSalette:
http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/rome-will-loose-faith-la-salette.html
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La Salette is approved .
False apparitions I dont comment on.
So where is your comment on La Salette?
La Salette has come to pass in our day.
So you believe that we are currently experiencing the crisis foretold by Our Lady of La Salette?
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To comprehend fully the current condition of world events require understanding of the political, the economic and the spiritual. The three are interconnected.
Today we are beginning to see the fulfillment of the Masonic agenda of a One World Government as called for by Albert Pike, Karl Marx and others. Central to those plans is that the new world government will be run from Jerusalem. Once we defeat Iran and Syria we may expect the rebuilding of the Temple. Does anyone honestly expect Pope Francis to oppose that construction?
"Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of the Anti-Christ."
Our Lady of La Salette, Sept. 19, 1846
"St. Bernard speaks in the passage of the Antipope as the Beast of the Apocalypse." The Catholic Encyclopedia 1907 Vol.1 pg. 561
"Towards the end of the world, Antichrist will overthrow the pope and usurp his see." Bl. Joachim 1202
The Reign of the Antichrist
pg. 130
Rev. Culleton
"For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive even the elect." Matt 24:24
"Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. Remember you not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things." 2 Thes 2:3-5
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La Salette is approved .
False apparitions I dont comment on.
So where is your comment on La Salette?
La Salette has come to pass in our day.
So you believe that we are currently experiencing the crisis foretold by Our Lady of La Salette?
Malleus: La Sallette is by no means the only revelation. Our Lady of Fatima - Our Lady of Good Success - Pope Leo XIII 's vision prior to compiling the St Michael the Archangel Prayer (The full version)
Is Judgement day upon us? No one knows by Our Father in Heaven.
Look at Rome what do you see? Holiness? Vocations? A Pope who stands up against the evils of our day? By the fruits should you know them.
How long this trial lasts is anyones guess. Arianism lasted 300 years .
Has Elias or Enoch come? Not yet. Is the current Claimant the Anti Christ? I cannot say this.
But are we in a period of Heresy? Anyone who is in denial of that must have their head in the sand
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There are probably better people to respond to this but here are my thoughts:
(a) I didn't think Akita was an approved apparition.
(b) Wrt La Salette, Our Lady does not say when this will happen to the Pope. This could be a future pope.
So the frightful crisis and the time of darkness is not now?
Bishop Williamson on LaSalette:
http://williamsonletters.blogspot.com/2009/02/rome-will-loose-faith-la-salette.html
Good article. It shows that the current crisis goes far beyond poor interpretation of Vatican II docuмents, and abuses in the so called "mass." Holy Mother Church has been eclipsed.
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La Salette is approved .
False apparitions I dont comment on.
So where is your comment on La Salette?
La Salette has come to pass in our day.
So you believe that we are currently experiencing the crisis foretold by Our Lady of La Salette?
Malleus: La Sallette is by no means the only revelation. Our Lady of Fatima - Our Lady of Good Success - Pope Leo XIII 's vision prior to compiling the St Michael the Archangel Prayer (The full version)
Is Judgement day upon us? No one knows by Our Father in Heaven.
Look at Rome what do you see? Holiness? Vocations? A Pope who stands up against the evils of our day? By the fruits should you know them.
How long this trial lasts is anyones guess. Arianism lasted 300 years .
Has Elias or Enoch come? Not yet. Is the current Claimant the Anti Christ? I cannot say this.
But are we in a period of Heresy? Anyone who is in denial of that must have their head in the sand
Then you believe that we have had a Vicar during the crisis as Our Lady said?
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I do not speculate on that any longer because neither sedevacantists nor members of SSPX obey him in all things.
If we go to Mass , obey the Commandmewnts frequent the Sacraments and believe and live as Catholics and keep ourselves unstained and pray our Holy Rosaries - This is not disobedience is it? There are no laws against these things.
Obedience is there to Keep Catholics on the straight and narrow.
In todays world - Obedience to Rome would have the opposite effect.
So the purpose of Obedience is rendered moot.
Therefore , who is or isnt Pope is a non issue - Not because we say so but because of Romes infidelity to Christ who is our King.
It remains our charge to always put GOD first.
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Chapter 12 of Daniel states that the Continual sacrifice will come to an end. Much tribulation and then a time of peace after 3 and a half years pass of no sacrifice.
I do believe that this passage is very important and I do believe we are very close to this. Questions should run through our minds, like, the new order has no continual sacrifice, no Precious Blood. Without Christ's Blood, evil abounds, tribulation.
My question is, if no Precious Blood, then no clergy?!
For those, especially who wish to stay New Order, just read this passage and the commentary.
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I do not speculate on that any longer because neither sedevacantists nor members of SSPX obey him in all things.
If we go to Mass , obey the Commandmewnts frequent the Sacraments and believe and live as Catholics and keep ourselves unstained and pray our Holy Rosaries - This is not disobedience is it? There are no laws against these things.
Obedience is there to Keep Catholics on the straight and narrow.
In todays world - Obedience to Rome would have the opposite effect.
So the purpose of Obedience is rendered moot.
Therefore , who is or isnt Pope is a non issue - Not because we say so but because of Romes infidelity to Christ who is our King.
It remains our charge to always put GOD first.
I hear you. I am just as upset about Rome's infidelity to Christ as you are. The point is Our Lady says we have a Pope during this crisis. That alone is enough reason to abandon sedevacantism completely. Prophecy is essential so that we are not swayed by the winds of doctrine (sedevacantism).
[11] And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; [14] That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. [15] But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: Eph 4:11-15
The Pope must do the Consecration of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart to Russia with all the bishops to end the crisis. We are supposed to be praying for the Pope not deposing him! This is certainly a serious matter, for a huge punishment hangs in the balance. We can lawfully resist the Pope if He commands us to abandon the traditions of the Church. Our Lord did the same with the scribes and the Pharisees who apostatized (by all human means of judging). Deposing the Pope is not necessary in order to hold our traditions. There is everything to lose and nothing to gain in deposing the Pope.
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Chapter 12 of Daniel states that the Continual sacrifice will come to an end. Much tribulation and then a time of peace after 3 and a half years pass of no sacrifice.
I do believe that this passage is very important and I do believe we are very close to this. Questions should run through our minds, like, the new order has no continual sacrifice, no Precious Blood. Without Christ's Blood, evil abounds, tribulation.
My question is, if no Precious Blood, then no clergy?!
For those, especially who wish to stay New Order, just read this passage and the commentary.
Daniel (Chapter 12) speaks of the very last days when the antichrist is persecuting the Church for 3.5 years (not this time). After this Christ will come again and the world as we know it will end. There will be a new Heaven and a new Earth.
[7] And I heard the man that was clothed in linen, that stood upon the waters of the river: when he had lifted up his right hand, and his left hand to heaven, and had sworn, by him that liveth for ever, that it should be unto a time, and times, and half a time. And when the scattering of the band of the holy people shall be accomplished, all these things shall be finished. Dan 12:7
[11] And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days, Dan 12:11
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What theology is being contradicted. Please explain. Also, ordinary private revelation does not bind, but prophecy does (or we extinguish the Spirit). La Salette certainly qualifies as prophecy. What I am doing and what you are failing to do is to prove the prophecy (1 Thes 5:18-21). On top of that, I specifically said we were not at the end. You are not reading my posts carefully. I said there would be a period of peace, then the end. Here is what I said...
Can you show me where the Church teaches that prophesy binds a conscience? I don't have to prove anything regarding prophesy. The prophesies in the approved apparitions are open to interpretation, there is no official way that they must be held.
This appears to me the issue here, that you are exaggerating the importance of prophesy and using it as an argument to support the claims of the Vatican II "popes." If this is not your intent, then what is it?
"The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied."
Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.
By you saying that our current crisis is not the crisis foretold by Our Lady of La Salette, you imply that there will be another crisis before the persecution of the antichrist. You have still not responded to that.
I don't know if it is or it isn't. I do know that Our Lady of Fatima promised an era of peace after the consecration of Russia by the Pope and the bishops. That appears to me to mean that this crisis will not lead to the immediate end of the world.
But, either way, it is futile to think we can answer any of this, private revelation is not part of the deposit of Faith.
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What theology is being contradicted. Please explain. Also, ordinary private revelation does not bind, but prophecy does (or we extinguish the Spirit). La Salette certainly qualifies as prophecy. What I am doing and what you are failing to do is to prove the prophecy (1 Thes 5:18-21). On top of that, I specifically said we were not at the end. You are not reading my posts carefully. I said there would be a period of peace, then the end. Here is what I said...
Can you show me where the Church teaches that prophesy binds a conscience? I don't have to prove anything regarding prophesy. The prophesies in the approved apparitions are open to interpretation, there is no official way that they must be held.
This appears to me the issue here, that you are exaggerating the importance of prophesy and using it as an argument to support the claims of the Vatican II "popes." If this is not your intent, then what is it?
"The problem with this reply is that there will be a triumph of the Church of God after the crisis foretold at La Salette. Our Lady of Fatima says the same. There will then be a period of peace. If you are referring to the persecution at the end of the world, there will be no successor to the Chair after that. You must conclude then, that there will be another crisis and persecution before the antichrist (besides this one). St. Paul says there will be a (one) revolt before the antichrist. I do not know of two revolts being prophesied."
Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.
By you saying that our current crisis is not the crisis foretold by Our Lady of La Salette, you imply that there will be another crisis before the persecution of the antichrist. You have still not responded to that.
I don't know if it is or it isn't. I do know that Our Lady of Fatima promised an era of peace after the consecration of Russia by the Pope and the bishops. That appears to me to mean that this crisis will not lead to the immediate end of the world.
But, either way, it is futile to think we can answer any of this, private revelation is not part of the deposit of Faith.
Unfortunately you do not discern between a mere ordinary private revelation and an authentic prophecy of a Church approved apparition. I showed aready in two Scripture verses that as Catholics we are obliged to prove and hold prophecy. All prophecies come through a private revelation of some sort. There would be no prophecy if all people thought like you. Many in the conciliar Church think the same way. Many perished by dismissing prophecies of the Old Testament prophets as mere private revelations. Many in this age have already perished and will perish by not heeding Our Lady's prophecies through her blessed seers.
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Unfortunately you do not discern between a mere ordinary private revelation and an authentic prophecy of a Church approved apparition. I showed aready in two Scripture verses that as Catholics we are obliged to prove and hold prophecy. All prophecies come through a private revelation of some sort. There would be no prophecy if all people thought like you. Many in the conciliar Church think the same way. Many perished by dismissing prophecies of the Old Testament prophets as mere private revelations. Many in this age have already perished and will perish by not heeding Our Lady's prophecies through her blessed seers.
Even an approved apparition is not part of the Deposit of Faith.
But, as I said before, there is no official interpretation of the prophesies as given in the apparitions of Our Lady or of the saints. A Catholic is not bound to conclude that the prophesy relates to our times, or any specific time.
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Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.
Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?
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Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.
Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?
This is beside the point. Do you agree that there is no official binding interpretation of prophesy?
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Unfortunately you do not discern between a mere ordinary private revelation and an authentic prophecy of a Church approved apparition. I showed aready in two Scripture verses that as Catholics we are obliged to prove and hold prophecy. All prophecies come through a private revelation of some sort. There would be no prophecy if all people thought like you. Many in the conciliar Church think the same way. Many perished by dismissing prophecies of the Old Testament prophets as mere private revelations. Many in this age have already perished and will perish by not heeding Our Lady's prophecies through her blessed seers.
Even an approved apparition is not part of the Deposit of Faith.
But, as I said before, there is no official interpretation of The prophesies as given in the apparitions of Our L any or of the saints. A Catholic is not bound to conclude that the prophesy relates to our times, or any specific time.
Its not just an approved apparition. It is prophetic. It must be proved and held.
[19] Extinguish not the spirit. [20] Despise not prophecies. [21] But prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 1 Thes 5:19-21
Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?
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Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?
I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.
My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.
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Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.
Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?
This is beside the point. Do you agree that there is no official binding interpretation of prophesy?
Just because the Church does not bind the consciences of the faithful to a given interpretation, does not mean that the faithful are not obliged to prove the interpretation that is given. Do you believe the Church would directly contradict 1 Thes 5:19-21.
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Whose to say that St. Paul is talking about our crisis? Maybe he is talking about a much greater revolt that has yet to come.
Nearly the whole world has currently lost the faith Ambrose. A greater revolt?
This is beside the point. Do you agree that there is no official binding interpretation of prophesy?
Just because the Church does not bind the consciences of the faithful to a given interpretation, does not mean that the faithful are not obliged to prove the interpretation that is given. Do you believe the Church would directly contradict 1 Thes 5:19-21.
The Church would never contradict scripture. It is impossible.
If you want to believe that a certain prophesy relates to our times, you have the right to do so, but what you cannot do is state your interpretation as a point of belief that Catholics must believe.
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Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?
I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.
My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.
We must, however, prove the prophecy. That is the point of this thread. I am challenging you do disprove my interpretation. 1 Thes 5:19-21 says we cannot despise (dismiss) prophecy as a mere private revelation and not attempt to prove it (as you are doing). Also, if you say it can't be proven, then you contradict Scripture which says we are to prove prophecy. If you are satisfied with your interpretation of two revolts, then I cannot help you. If you are not satisfied, you are not obliged to merely dismiss prophecy as a private revelation (despise it).
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Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?
I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.
My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.
We must, however, prove the prophecy. That is the point of this thread. I am challenging you do disprove my interpretation. 1 Thes 5:19-21 says we cannot despise (dismiss) prophecy as a mere private revelation and not attempt to prove it (as you are doing). Also, if you say it can't be proven, then you contradict Scripture which says we are to prove prophecy. If you are satisfied with your interpretation of two revolts, then I cannot help you. If you are not satisfied, you are not obliged to merely dismiss prophecy as a private revelation (despise it).
Please cite from any approved moralist to support for your assertions.
1. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to "prove prophesy."
2. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to believe in private revelation, or non-authoritative interpretations of prophecy.
Since you assert these things, the onus remains on you to prove them.
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Do you follow or reject 1 Thes 5:19-21?
I accept all of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. So of course I believe in the verse you cite.
My point is that you cannot privately interpret this to mean that Catholics must believe this prophesy is for our time right now. You have a right to think that, but no one is bound in conscience to agree with your interpretation.
We must, however, prove the prophecy. That is the point of this thread. I am challenging you do disprove my interpretation. 1 Thes 5:19-21 says we cannot despise (dismiss) prophecy as a mere private revelation and not attempt to prove it (as you are doing). Also, if you say it can't be proven, then you contradict Scripture which says we are to prove prophecy. If you are satisfied with your interpretation of two revolts, then I cannot help you. If you are not satisfied, you are not obliged to merely dismiss prophecy as a private revelation (despise it).
Please cite from any approved moralist to support for your assertions.
1. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to "prove prophesy."
2. Demonstrate from approved sources that I have an obligation to believe in private revelation, or non-authoritative interpretations of prophecy.
Since you assert these things, the onus remains on you to prove them.
Please show where I have said that a mere private revelation had to be believed? This was purely made up on your part.
As far as prophecy needing to be proved, I gave you Sacred Scripture itself! Is 1 Thes 5:19-21 so ambiguous that it would need authoritative interpretation from the Church? If so, I submit to the Church when she is restored. Otherwise we are to interpret passages literally unless reason suggests otherwise (St. Augustine). We must prove prophecy.
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
What say you?
The suffering Pope Francis?
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
What say you?
The suffering Pope Francis?
So his pontificate has ended?
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
What say you?
The suffering Pope Francis?
So his pontificate has ended?
It hasn't even begun. He's not a Catholic. I do believe the papacy will be restored one day. How? I don't know but it will likely, based on this prophesy, be very near the end of the world. I won't really try to fully understand the various prophesies of Our Lady, but clearly, the Church hasn't had a "suffering" pope for decades.
I'm just responding as you asked.
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As with "canonizations" I do not pay attention to apparitions after 1958.
Was Akita where the "seer" were walking up a rocky hill backwards with their heads tilted back? Sounds demonic.
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As with "canonizations" I do not pay attention to apparitions after 1958.
Was Akita where the "seer" were walking up a rocky hill backwards with their heads tilted back? Sounds demonic.
So you don't pay attention to St. Padre Pio? And no, Akita was not the apparition to which you refer.
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AJPM,
You are losing me here. You write in such a way that I can't make heads or tails out of your exact meaning.
1. Can you explain to me this obligation that you say we have to "prove prophecy." What is the exact nature of this obligation and who imposed it. Please cite approved sources.
2. You admit that Catholics are not bound by private revelation, it is good that this is clear. So what is your point then?
3. Do you believe that Catholics must believe a certain interpretation of words from scripture that has not yet been taught to us by the Church?
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal... (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
What say you?
The suffering Pope Francis?
So his pontificate has ended?
It hasn't even begun. He's not a Catholic. I do believe the papacy will be restored one day. How? I don't know but it will likely, based on this prophesy, be very near the end of the world. I won't really try to fully understand the various prophesies of Our Lady, but clearly, the Church hasn't had a "suffering" pope for decades.
I'm just responding as you asked.
Pope John Paul II didn't suffer? An attempt wasn't made on his life? How about Pope John Paul I? Many believe he was poisoned. I would not doubt it. Pope John XXIII wanted to stop the council from his death bed according to some reports. Even from what is known to us, Popes have suffered. There may be much more unknown. Would people know how much you have suffered just be looking at a smiling picture of you? No. Therefore your picture and comments do not disprove the Our Lady was speaking about this time period at La Salette. This is the revolt spoken of by St. Paul, this is the time of darkness and the crisis Our Lady has spoke of. Then will come a period of peace if we are fortunate enough to see it. Then the antichrist.
[1]And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him: [2] That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, 2 The.s 2:1-3
Two revolts before the antichrist or one?
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AJPM,
You are losing me here. You write in such a way that I can't make heads or tails out of your exact meaning.
1. Can you explain to me this obligation that you say we have to "prove prophecy." What is the exact nature of this obligation and who imposed it. Please cite approved sources.
2. You admit that Catholics are not bound by private revelation, it is good that this is clear. So what is your point then?
3. Do you believe that Catholics must believe a certain interpretation of words from scripture that has not yet been taught to us by the Church?
1. Once again, the obligation...
[19] Extinguish not the spirit. [20] Despise not prophecies. [21] But prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2. Once an approved private revelation of the Catholic Church accurately predicts the future in such a way that it becomes prophetic, it is no longer just a private revelation only. It is a prophetic private revelation (a prophecy).This we must prove and hold according to Scripture, lest we extinguish the Spirit.
3. Pope Leo XIII, PROVIDENTISSIMUS DEUS:
15. But he must not on that account consider that it is forbidden, when just cause exists, to push inquiry and exposition beyond what the Fathers have done; provided he carefully observes the rule so wisely laid down by St. Augustine -- not to depart from the literal and obvious sense, except only where reason makes it untenable or necessity requires...
First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 On faith:
Since human beings are totally dependent on God as their creator and lord, and created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are obliged to yield to God the revealer full submission of intellect and will by faith. This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the catholic church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.Faith, declares the Apostle, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen [17]. Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all. Hence Moses and the prophets, and especially Christ our lord himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies;
while of the apostles we read: And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it [18] . Again it is written: We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place [19]
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You are not answering the questions.
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You are not answering the questions.
You are just not understanding the answers. Maybe slow it down, and ask just one question at a time. When one question is resolved we will move on to the next question. Fair enough?
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You are not answering the questions.
You are just not understanding the answers. Maybe slow it down, and ask just one question at a time. When one question is resolved we will move on to the next question. Fair enough?
Ok, regarding question 1 above: "1. Can you explain to me this obligation that you say we have to "prove prophecy." What is the exact nature of this obligation and who imposed it. Please cite approved sources. ".
You answered, "1. Once again, the obligation... 2. Once an approved private revelation of the Catholic Church accurately predicts the future in such a way that it becomes prophetic, it is no longer just a private revelation only. It is a prophetic private revelation (a prophecy).This we must prove and hold according to Scripture, lest we extinguish the Spirit. "
I asked you to define the exact nature of the obligation using approved sources. You did not do that. I also asked you who imposed the obligation. Who has to "prove prophesy?"
I am asking you to support your position. A quote from the bible is not enough. What do the commentaries say on the verse? How has the verse been Traditionally understood by the Church? How have the theologians explained this point? These are the questions that remain unanswered on this first point.
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You are not answering the questions.
You are just not understanding the answers. Maybe slow it down, and ask just one question at a time. When one question is resolved we will move on to the next question. Fair enough?
Ok, regarding question 1 above: "1. Can you explain to me this obligation that you say we have to "prove prophecy." What is the exact nature of this obligation and who imposed it. Please cite approved sources. ".
You answered, "1. Once again, the obligation... 2. Once an approved private revelation of the Catholic Church accurately predicts the future in such a way that it becomes prophetic, it is no longer just a private revelation only. It is a prophetic private revelation (a prophecy).This we must prove and hold according to Scripture, lest we extinguish the Spirit. "
I asked you to define the exact nature of the obligation using approved sources. You did not do that. I also asked you who imposed the obligation. Who has to "prove prophesy?"
I am asking you to support your position. A quote from the bible is not enough. What do the commentaries say on the verse? How has the verse been Traditionally understood by the Church? How have the theologians explained this point? These are the questions that remain unanswered on this first point.
I asked for one question Ambrose. Try again.
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis[/u]. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
What say you?
Let's talk:
Theological controversies cannot be cogently answered by appeals to private revelation, even those apparitions of Our Blessed Mother that have been expressly approved by the authority of Holy Mother Church.
It seems to me that Our Lady appears to confirm the teachings of the Church rather than give material to be used for polemical exchanges.
Lourdes is the best example. Our Lady deigned to visit her handmaiden Bernadette, destined to become a great Saint exalted even upon the sacred Altar by Canonization, in order to confirm the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception infallibly given by Pope Pius IX.
The messages of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima have been widely abused in various polemical exchanges regarding some disputed matter or another. This, I think, diminishes the sublimity and profundity of these glorious messages given to us by Our Blessed Mother.
Though the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima constitute private revelation, the contents thereof are a wondrous epitome of the depositum fidei and, by benign dispensation of Divine Providence, they were given particularly for the sake of those interior souls living in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries and who, despite the aberrations and disorder of the present age, would aspire to the heights of prayer and penance, especially and particularly by means of true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Together with the miracle of the terpsichorean Sun, the most remarkable thing of Fatima (at least to me) is the manner in which sublime truths of dogmatic and moral theology are given in a celestial simplicity readily understood even by children, akin to the manner in which the sacred Evangelists recorded the life and words of Our Lord in the holy Gospel. Such a thing, impossible to imitate or artificialize, is (at least to me) one of the signs that Fatima is indeed beyond question.
I personally believe the message of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima is the spiritual doctrine of St. Louis-Marie de Montfort applied to the predicament of interior souls in the present ages. Fatima ultimately leads to total Consecration to Eternal Wisdom through Mary Most Holy, and this constitutes the most perfect renewal of our Baptismal vows. This would compel a soul earnestly endeavoring to cultivate the interior life to pay heed to Our Lady's message at Fatima.
So, my take on it is that, in the midst of polemics and so forth, one should not lose sight of the real significance of the celestial visitation of Our Lady, assumed into Heaven and reigning there as supreme Arbitress of the Kingdom conquered by her Divine Son by His Precious Blood.
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis[/u]. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
What say you?
Let's talk:
Theological controversies cannot be cogently answered by appeals to private revelation, even those apparitions of Our Blessed Mother that have been expressly approved by the authority of Holy Mother Church.
It seems to me that Our Lady appears to confirm the teachings of the Church rather than give material to be used for polemical exchanges.
Lourdes is the best example. Our Lady deigned to visit her handmaiden Bernadette, destined to become a great Saint exalted even upon the sacred Altar by Canonization, in order to confirm the definition of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception infallibly given by Pope Pius IX.
The messages of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima have been widely abused in various polemical exchanges regarding some disputed matter or another. This, I think, diminishes the sublimity and profundity of these glorious messages given to us by Our Blessed Mother.
Though the messages of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima constitute private revelation, the contents thereof are a wondrous epitome of the depositum fidei and, by benign dispensation of Divine Providence, they were given particularly for the sake of those interior souls living in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries and who, despite the aberrations and disorder of the present age, would aspire to the heights of prayer and penance, especially and particularly by means of true devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Together with the miracle of the terpsichorean Sun, the most remarkable thing of Fatima (at least to me) is the manner in which sublime truths of dogmatic and moral theology are given in a celestial simplicity readily understood even by children, akin to the manner in which the sacred Evangelists recorded the life and words of Our Lord in the holy Gospel. Such a thing, impossible to imitate or artificialize, is (at least to me) one of the signs that Fatima is indeed beyond question.
I personally believe the message of Our Lady of the Rosary at Fatima is the spiritual doctrine of St. Louis-Marie de Montfort applied to the predicament of interior souls in the present ages. Fatima ultimately leads to total Consecration to Eternal Wisdom through Mary Most Holy, and this constitutes the most perfect renewal of our Baptismal vows. This would compel a soul earnestly endeavoring to cultivate the interior life to pay heed to Our Lady's message at Fatima.
So, my take on it is that, in the midst of polemics and so forth, one should not lose sight of the real significance of the celestial visitation of Our Lady, assumed into Heaven and reigning there as supreme Arbitress of the Kingdom conquered by her Divine Son by His Precious Blood.
God gives the gift of prophecies to His Church precisely to clear up theological controversies, and so we are not swayed by the winds of false doctrine...
[11]And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; [14] That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive
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I asked for one question Ambrose. Try again.
I am still on question one. Do you think these matters are simple? You left the shallow waters when you waded into complex theology.
I would urge you to retreat to shore where you will find peace. You urge me to "prove prophesy," and I am now urging you to take a step back and slowly learn your Faith step by step, and educate yourself on each point to be sure you understand it correctly.
I can give you recommendations of books to read and the order to read them if you like.
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I do not speculate on that any longer because neither sedevacantists nor members of SSPX obey him in all things.
If we go to Mass , obey the Commandmewnts frequent the Sacraments and believe and live as Catholics and keep ourselves unstained and pray our Holy Rosaries - This is not disobedience is it? There are no laws against these things.
Obedience is there to Keep Catholics on the straight and narrow.
In todays world - Obedience to Rome would have the opposite effect.
So the purpose of Obedience is rendered moot.
Therefore , who is or isnt Pope is a non issue - Not because we say so but because of Romes infidelity to Christ who is our King.
It remains our charge to always put GOD first.
I hear you. I am just as upset about Rome's infidelity to Christ as you are. The point is Our Lady says we have a Pope during this crisis. That alone is enough reason to abandon sedevacantism completely. Prophecy is essential so that we are not swayed by the winds of doctrine (sedevacantism).
[11] And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; [14] That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. [15] But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ: Eph 4:11-15
The Pope must do the Consecration of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart to Russia with all the bishops to end the crisis. We are supposed to be praying for the Pope not deposing him! This is certainly a serious matter, for a huge punishment hangs in the balance. We can lawfully resist the Pope if He commands us to abandon the traditions of the Church. Our Lord did the same with the scribes and the Pharisees who apostatized (by all human means of judging). Deposing the Pope is not necessary in order to hold our traditions. There is everything to lose and nothing to gain in deposing the Pope.
No one is deposing him... The man is not Catholic, he does not want to be Pope. He refuses all and every single sign of authority as far as we are concerned even by Sedeplenist standards he has abdicated his authority.
He practices Judaism with more fidelity celebrating "their ancient traditions" more then the Catholic ones which he despises. He loves "the fruits" of the Liturgical revolution, practices them personally, canonizing those who led the revolution.
The pope issue is becoming important, because you will have to now be forced to accept as canonized Saints to be revered/imitated in the liturgy at some point in the coming year. Now you can choose to deny him as a Saint, and keep the faith. Or just simply "be obedient" to heretics and go to Hell by accepting that the man is worthy of veneration after doing the most apostate objective actions possible in the public light. Promoted the worst religious indifferentism, apostasy in the history of the Church. Not even the French revolutionaries could have ever dreamed of the Abomination of desolation that has taken place in the Holy places of worship in our Catholic altar's throughout the world. The Mass is offered in UNION with the Saints, not false Saints. Do not forget that after this year, Paul VI is next and now in the greatest crisis of the CHURCH EVER! We are led to believe that EVERY single man who objectively speaking never actively preached the faith, the primacy of the Petrine office (except to punish traditionalists), papal infallibility, Vatican I or previous Council's, universal laws that are harmful to souls etc... That ALL of them are Saints! Wow... Just the pretension and pride that it takes to much such an assumption, to think that it will somehow be binding on the faithful... Whereas before there was nothing that traditional Catholics were being asked objectively speaking about swallowing the revolution whole and entire, sure you had Escriva, Mother Teresa of Culcutta and so forth. I have read pretty different stuff on both of them, and it was still questionable in my mind where was the truth. However, it is IMPOSSIBLE to defend JP II and John XXIII since there is so much information and since the Pope is such a public figure. This is the important thing to distinguish we can be certain of JP II and John XXIII as opposed to a more obscure prelate in the Church or religious who lived a life relatively more obscure life and therefore it might be less possible for us to be able to have such certainty of the facts. It is easier to see the cockroaches in the room when the lights are turned on, and this is precisely what we see in the case of JP II and John XXIII. I had always known one thing for certain if JP II was canonized, I would be instantly a Sedevacantist... It is theologically impossible for the man to be canonized and the man doing it retain his office.
+Pax+
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Pope John Paul II didn't suffer? An attempt wasn't made on his life? How about Pope John Paul I? Many believe he was poisoned. I would not doubt it. Pope John XXIII wanted to stop the council from his death bed according to some reports. Even from what is known to us, Popes have suffered.
Do you seriously believe that spending a few days in a modern hospital bed (or even the Parkinson's Disease at the end of his life) is what the Blessed Virgin meant by "a lot to suffer"?
As for the other two items, these are rumors that have no basis in facts. And I mean they were made up by someone projecting their hopes and dreams onto these men rather than face the truth about them.
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God gives the gift of prophecies to His Church precisely to clear up theological controversies, and so we are not swayed by the winds of false doctrine...
The Church decides on controverted issues. Your interpretation of specific prophesies and their relation to controverted issues is your opinion. That opinion means nothing to others.
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God gives the gift of prophecies to His Church precisely to clear up theological controversies, and so we are not swayed by the winds of false doctrine...
The Church decides on controverted issues. Your interpretation of specific prophesies and their relation to controverted issues is your opinion. That opinion means nothing to others.
The Church and Scripture are not opposed as you are making them out to be. Church also tells us we must prove prophecy. The Church does not bind our conscience to an interpretation. If that were the case prophecy would not have to be proved by us!!! You are missing the point SJB. Catholic prophecy can not be relegated to the back burner or rendered insignificant as the protestants believe. Catholics must prove and hold prophecy. Do you not believe my interpretation of La Salette? O.K. Then what is yours? Read the quote from Our Lady and interpret it. That's the point of this thread. Does your interpretation make sense to you? If it does and it is different then mine, then prove it. That is what Catholics do. There must be schisms as you know...
[18] For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you; and in part I believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you. 1 Cor 11:18-19
Those who prove and hold prophecy correctly will be "not be swayed by the winds of doctrine" and be on the right side of the schism.
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God gives the gift of prophecies to His Church precisely to clear up theological controversies, and so we are not swayed by the winds of false doctrine...
The Church decides on controverted issues. Your interpretation of specific prophesies and their relation to controverted issues is your opinion. That opinion means nothing to others.
That right there sums up this thread.
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God gives the gift of prophecies to His Church precisely to clear up theological controversies, and so we are not swayed by the winds of false doctrine...
The Church decides on controverted issues. Your interpretation of specific prophesies and their relation to controverted issues is your opinion. That opinion means nothing to others.
The Church and Scripture are not opposed as you are making them out to be. Church also tells us we must prove prophecy. The Church does not bind our conscience to an interpretation. If that were the case prophecy would not have to be proved by us!!! You are missing the point SJB. Catholic prophecy can not be relegated to the back burner or rendered insignificant as the protestants believe. Catholics must prove and hold prophecy. Do you not believe my interpretation of La Salette? O.K. Then what is yours? Read the quote from Our Lady and interpret it. That's the point of this thread. Does your interpretation make sense to you? If it does and it is different then mine, then prove it. That is what Catholics do. There must be schisms as you know...
[18] For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you; and in part I believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you. 1 Cor 11:18-19
Those who prove and hold prophecy correctly will be "not be swayed by the winds of doctrine" and be on the right side of the schism.
Nowhere have I said or implied that "The Church and Scripture are opposed" in any way. I never said that prophecy should be "rendered insignificant."
Where did you learn that we all should interpret private revelations and then argue our opinions? I'd say that approach causes more confusion and division than any benefit you might imagine. Anyway, we, as Catholics, are NOT instructed to do this.
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God gives the gift of prophecies to His Church precisely to clear up theological controversies, and so we are not swayed by the winds of false doctrine...
The Church decides on controverted issues. Your interpretation of specific prophesies and their relation to controverted issues is your opinion. That opinion means nothing to others.
The Church and Scripture are not opposed as you are making them out to be. Church also tells us we must prove prophecy. The Church does not bind our conscience to an interpretation. If that were the case prophecy would not have to be proved by us!!! You are missing the point SJB. Catholic prophecy can not be relegated to the back burner or rendered insignificant as the protestants believe. Catholics must prove and hold prophecy. Do you not believe my interpretation of La Salette? O.K. Then what is yours? Read the quote from Our Lady and interpret it. That's the point of this thread. Does your interpretation make sense to you? If it does and it is different then mine, then prove it. That is what Catholics do. There must be schisms as you know...
[18] For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you; and in part I believe it. [19] For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you. 1 Cor 11:18-19
Those who prove and hold prophecy correctly will be "not be swayed by the winds of doctrine" and be on the right side of the schism.
Nowhere have I said or implied that "The Church and Scripture are opposed" in any way. I never said that prophecy should be "rendered insignificant."
Where did you learn that we all should interpret private revelations and then argue our opinions? I'd say that approach causes more confusion and division than any benefit you might imagine. Anyway, we, as Catholics, are NOT instructed to do this.
You are putting words in my mouth. Just about all prophecy starts as private revelation. Not all private revelation is prophecy. Also, I said prophecy should be proved in accordance with Scripture, and Vatican I. Someone else asked me, "why they should believe my interpretation." Actually a better reply would have been, "that it should be already suitable to his understanding". Also for prophecy to be proved some minor interpretation is sometimes required. Even so, we are assured by the Church that it is not so hard to understand...
First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 On faith:
Since human beings are totally dependent on God as their creator and lord, and created reason is completely subject to uncreated truth, we are obliged to yield to God the revealer full submission of intellect and will by faith. This faith, which is the beginning of human salvation, the catholic church professes to be a supernatural virtue, by means of which, with the grace of God inspiring and assisting us, we believe to be true what He has revealed, not because we perceive its intrinsic truth by the natural light of reason, but because of the authority of God himself, who makes the revelation and can neither deceive nor be deceived.Faith, declares the Apostle, is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen [17]. Nevertheless, in order that the submission of our faith should be in accordance with reason, it was God's will that there should be linked to the internal assistance of the holy Spirit external indications of his revelation, that is to say divine acts, and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all. Hence Moses and the prophets, and especially Christ our lord himself, worked many absolutely clear miracles and delivered prophecies; while of the apostles we read: And they went forth and preached every, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it [18] . Again it is written: We have the prophetic word made more sure; you will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place [19]
Now if prophesies are most certain signs of revelation suited to the understanding of all, then why do you not understand the prophecy of Our Lady of La Salette?
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The Church explains prophecy, not YOU. We await the judgment of the Church while you figure it out on your own, condemning others who disagree with your opinions.
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis[/u]. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
What say you?
I say you are a pretentious moron. That's what I've proven to myself.
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Catholic prophecy can not be relegated to the back burner or rendered insignificant as the protestants believe. Catholics must prove and hold prophecy.
Neither may Catholics derogate duly approved private revelations in order to suit their views, just as Catholics can never profane the Sacred Scriptures as the heretics and schismatics do with their private interpretations, and the same goes for the Sacred Canons, the decrees and declarations of the Apostolic See and of the holy Œcuмencial Councils.
A Catholic is ruled both in his belief and in his conduct by the sacred magisterium of Holy Mother Church, not by private interpretations of texts. It is by obedience to the Apostolic See that a Catholic is distinguished from all others who endeavor to profess themselves as disciples of Our Lord and yet betray Him in not heeding the guidance of the successors of St. Peter, whom the same Lord God constituted as the rock whereupon He established His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (S. Matth. xvi. 18). As the Apostle St. Paul teaches (Rom. x. 17), the faithful are to assent to divine revelation by hearing: "Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ." The same Apostle expounds exactly how the faithful are to distinguish the true word of Christ from its pretended imposters (Gal. i. 8): "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." The same blessed Apostle foresaw that indeed the Church would be plagued by those who would stray from the teachings of Our Lord, preferring to pick and choose what to believe and from whence to derive their beliefs: "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables" (II Tim. iv. 3-4).
It is perilous to avail oneself of one's interpretation private revelations, even those duly approved, in an endeavor to demonstrate or disprove a theological proposition. As it is written: "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels" (Prov. xii. 15).
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The Church explains prophecy, not YOU. We await the judgment of the Church while you figure it out on your own, condemning others who disagree with your opinions.
SJB, does the Church tell us that she explains prophecy to us, or does she tell us that prophecy is already suitable to our understanding?
First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 On faith:
"...and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all."[/b]
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis[/u]. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
What say you?
I say you are a pretentious moron. That's what I've proven to myself.
:facepalm:
This is not a prudent way to respond. We have to remember not only civility and courtesy but also the teachings and examples of Our Lord.
In sacred yore it was written: "A fool immediately sheweth his anger: but he that dissembleth injuries is wise" (Prov. xii. 16). Our Lord, however, taught us to be even greater: "Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: that you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust" (S. Matth. v. 44-45).
Remember also, "A mild answer breaketh wrath: but a harsh word stirreth up fury" (Prov. xv. 1); and "A sweet word multiplieth friends, and appeaseth enemies, and a gracious tongue in a good man aboundeth" (Ecclus. vi. 5).
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The Church explains prophecy, not YOU. We await the judgment of the Church while you figure it out on your own, condemning others who disagree with your opinions.
SJB, does the Church tell us that she explains prophecy to us, or does she tell us that prophecy is already suitable to our understanding?
First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 On faith:
"...and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all."[/b]
Can you provide a commentary that explains how this relates to apparitions? I'd rather read an approved commentator than your private thoughts.
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Catholic prophecy can not be relegated to the back burner or rendered insignificant as the protestants believe. Catholics must prove and hold prophecy.
Neither may Catholics derogate duly approved private revelations in order to suit their views, just as Catholics can never profane the Sacred Scriptures as the heretics and schismatics do with their private interpretations, and the same goes for the Sacred Canons, the decrees and declarations of the Apostolic See and of the holy Œcuмencial Councils.
A Catholic is ruled both in his belief and in his conduct by the sacred magisterium of Holy Mother Church, not by private interpretations of texts. It is by obedience to the Apostolic See that a Catholic is distinguished from all others who endeavor to profess themselves as disciples of Our Lord and yet betray Him in not heeding the guidance of the successors of St. Peter, whom the same Lord God constituted as the rock whereupon He established His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church (S. Matth. xvi. 18). As the Apostle St. Paul teaches (Rom. x. 17), the faithful are to assent to divine revelation by hearing: "Faith then cometh by hearing; and hearing by the word of Christ." The same Apostle expounds exactly how the faithful are to distinguish the true word of Christ from its pretended imposters (Gal. i. 8): "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." The same blessed Apostle foresaw that indeed the Church would be plagued by those who would stray from the teachings of Our Lord, preferring to pick and choose what to believe and from whence to derive their beliefs: "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables" (II Tim. iv. 3-4).
It is perilous to avail oneself of one's interpretation private revelations, even those duly approved, in an endeavor to demonstrate or disprove a theological proposition. As it is written: "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that is wise hearkeneth unto counsels" (Prov. xii. 15).
Hobbledehoy, prophecy comes from private revelation, but not all private revelation is prophecy. Prophecy differs from non-prophetic private revelation in that the Church assures us that it is already suitable to our understanding. In regards to prophecy, we have the command to prove it (from the Church). The Church does not bind our conscience to prophecy as she does in faith and morals.
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The Church explains prophecy, not YOU. We await the judgment of the Church while you figure it out on your own, condemning others who disagree with your opinions.
SJB, does the Church tell us that she explains prophecy to us, or does she tell us that prophecy is already suitable to our understanding?
First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 On faith:
"...and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all."[/b]
Can you provide a commentary that explains how this relates to apparitions? I'd rather read an approved commentator than your private thoughts.
We know prophecy through fulfillment, regardless of the origin. Even Caiaphas prophesied regarding the death of Our Lord (John 11:49-50). What you are referring to is non-prophetic private revelation. These types of revelation need approval from the Church. We have to wait for the apparition and the message to be approved.
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Seems as if Our Lady (The Queen of Prophets) refutes an empty seat...
"The Vicar of My Son will suffer a great deal, because for a while the Church will yield to LARGE persecution, a time of darkness and the Church will witness a frightful crisis[/u]. He will suffer a great deal. I will be with him until the end and receive his sacrifice. The mischievous would attempt his life several times to do harm and shorten his days. Neither he nor his successor will see the triumph of the Church of God. (Our Lady of LaSalette, 1846)
"As I told you, if men do not repent and better themselves, the Father will inflict a terrible punishment on all humanity. It will be a punishment greater than the deluge, such as no one has ever seen before. Fire will fall from the sky and will wipe out a great part of humanity, the good as well as the bad, sparing neither priests nor faithful. The survivors will find themselves so desolate that they will envy the dead. The only consolation which will remain for you will be the Rosary and the Sign left by My Son. Each day recite the prayers of the Rosary. With the Rosary, pray for the Pope, the bishops and priests." (Our Lady of Akita, 1973)
What say you?
I have not the time right now to read this entire thread, so if someone already posted this I apologize.
Consider also what Our Lady of LaSalette said, "Rome will lose the Faith and become the seat of Anti-Christ"
Don't you think the true popes saw this coming and suffered knowing the devil was at the door.
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The Church explains prophecy, not YOU. We await the judgment of the Church while you figure it out on your own, condemning others who disagree with your opinions.
SJB, does the Church tell us that she explains prophecy to us, or does she tell us that prophecy is already suitable to our understanding?
First Vatican Council, Chapter 3 On faith:
"...and first and foremost miracles and prophecies, which clearly demonstrating as they do the omnipotence and infinite knowledge of God, are the most certain signs of revelation and are suited to the understanding of all."[/b]
And further, as I said in the beginning, I shall not attempt anything except under the direct guidance of the theology of the Church, and of writers whose works have its approbation. As I have ventured hitherto nothing of my own, so until the end I shall pursue the same course. - "The Pope and the Antichrist," by Cardinal Manning
Cardinal Manning presents the teaching of the Church only and also explains how prophesies gradually unfold and how we cannot fully understand some events until they actually happen.