Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Sedevacantism and Vatican I  (Read 2235 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2026, 03:24:39 AM »
Is a council that publicly professes already condemned errors infallible? Or does it fall under the same condemnations already given by previous Popes?

You'll find the answer is the latter. If the teachings of the council were already condemned by the Church, then they couldn't have come from the Church. They came from men who had already left her through public heresy. See: 'Audivimus', 'Achatius' and Causa XXIV: Heretics Excommunicating Catholics Question 1.

Vatican II publicly required the religious assent of all Catholics according to its promulgator, Paul VI. They were merely gaslighting you with the whole "pastoral council" nonsense. To learn more about what Vatican II actually taught, check out this abridged podcast series by former paid Vatican II apologist Louie Verrecchio so you know what you're assenting to.

To give you an idea, it teaches that declared heretics and schismatics are part of the "people of God" and the Church of Christ. By its own definition the conciliar-synodal church founded at Vatican II is a church with no unity of faith. It is in fact an extension of the liberal sect. Lacking the miraculous mark of unity of faith that only the Catholic Church has, this body of men that obscures the Catholic Church is not her.

If you think such poisonous fruit could come from the Church you don't really believe in the Church of the Apostles Creed.

I assume you were replying to Stubborn, not me…..

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2026, 06:03:37 AM »
Is a council that publicly professes already condemned errors infallible? Or does it fall under the same condemnations already given by previous Popes?
It is actually not the least bit complicated because if, as the sedes believe, it is de fide that all councils are ipso facto infallible, then V2 was infallible and all trads are at least wrong because there is no possible scenario anyone can come up with to change this - *if* all councils are ipso facto infallible.  
  
Church councils are infallible only insofar as the pope makes them infallible. Whatever V2 was, there was no infallibility to it - obviously.

How does the pope make them infallible? By defining a doctrine(s) concerning faith or morals ex cathedra.

What is ex cathedra? Per V1: "That is, when the pope, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."

V1 goes on to say that whenever the pope does this: "he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals."       


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2026, 08:52:43 AM »
Church councils are infallible only insofar as the pope makes them infallible. Whatever V2 was, there was no infallibility to it.

Both you Old Catholic R&R types AND the Sedevacantists can quibble until you're blue in the face regarding "That would have been infallbile [had they been legitimate popes].  No it wouldn't.  Yes it would." ad infinitum, ad nauseam

Both sides are missing the forest of indefectibility for the trees of infallibility.  If all that had happened in the 1960s were a few ambiguous or even erroneous statements in Vatican II, and no New Mass, no clown "Masses", no female eucharistic ministers, altar girls, "communion" in the hand, etc. ... there WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A TRADITIONAL MOVEMENT.

While the R&R interpretation regarding the notes of infallibility is absurdly narrow, the simple fact is that there had been some theologians after Vatican II who held a similarly narrow view, and who had not been condemned.  In fact, you'll not be able to find a single one who extended the scope of infallibility to the almost absurd lengths that the SVs have.

But that's the wrong problem, and it will not be resolved here.

What's at issue is that if you have decided that things are so bad in the Conciliar Church that you are required in conscience, to avoid offending God, and to save your soul ... to severe communion with the "Church", that you can't join them in their official public worship of God, or accept their Canon Law (where non-Catholics can receive the Sacraments), or accept their bogus cultus (i.e the bogus canonizations), since it's the very mission of the Church to guide souls in the truth and toward the sanctification of their souls, you're positing the defection of the Church in her mission to save souls.  Period.  End of story.

If you believe that the conditions in the Conciliar Church are accidental to the Conciliar Church, rather than being a substantial break, then you'd best get your rear end back over to one of the "Ecclesia Dei" groups or to join the Eastern Rites, or whatever.  But if they're substantial, where the Conciliar Religion represents a substantial rupture from the Catholic Church of all times, then considering that to be the Catholic Church would be both heretical and blasphemous.  You have to pick.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2026, 11:56:34 AM »
Both you Old Catholic R&R types AND the Sedevacantists can quibble until you're blue in the face regarding "That would have been infallbile [had they been legitimate popes].  No it wouldn't.  Yes it would." ad infinitum, ad nauseam

Both sides are missing the forest of indefectibility for the trees of infallibility.  
You can theologize the whole issue to your heart's content, the fact of the matter is, popes and councils are only infallible under certain, clearly defined circuмstances - see V1.

We do not concern ourselves with either the Church's indefectibility or infallibility - what we do is believe it, why? because we have God's promise on those, that's why. The divine protection of the pope and the preservation of the Church are strictly Christ's province and not anybody else's. He has no need of our substantiating His promises, He knows what He is doing.

All we know for certain is that today's revolution in the Church happened at V2. That's all we need to know as far as that goes. How God will preserve it from the gates of hell is up to Him.  

Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2026, 08:33:25 PM »
I agree with you, Stubborn.  Vatican I is it!  Cardinal Henry Edward Manning wrote many very good books leading up to this Council!  I was very excited to read, The True Story of the Council, Internal Mission of the Holy Ghost, The Present Crisis in the Church.  Cardinal Manning was inspired by the Holy Ghost.