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Author Topic: Sedevacantism and Vatican I  (Read 2258 times)

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Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2026, 02:38:09 PM »
I am not inserting my opinion...
...the pope, in this case Leo XIV...

Online Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2026, 06:09:34 PM »
You tell us that you don't know how long an interregnum can last - that's fine, thank you. Now, if you have the patience, I will attempt to explain as thoroughly and as clearly as I can.......

Per V1, which declares both:
1) it is anathema to say it is not divine law that there should be perpetual successors. Hence, perpetual successors is divine law, ergo, there absolutely, positively *will* be perpetual successors.
2) it is anathema to say the pope, in this case Leo XIV, is not the pope, the "successor of blessed Peter."
Again, this is per V1.

Here is V1 again for reference:
"If anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole church; or that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema."
 
So insisting that popes are not popes is declared anathema by V1, that is clearly what V1not me, says. Please note that V1 teaches this without any regard whatsoever to all the theological arguments to the contrary. So this I believe verbatim because V1 taught it, this is not unorthodox.

This means saying successive popes are not popes is not only anathema, it also means that doing so breaks perpetual succession, which idea is also anathema. I also believe this verbatim because V1 taught it, this is not unorthodox.

So please let me know precisely where I am unorthodox in my belief, because all I am doing is repeating V1 verbatim and like V1, without any regard whatsoever to the current crisis. Therefore,  I am not inserting my opinion, nor am I changing the meaning under the pretext of a more profound understanding. This is not unorthodox.

Ok, now I mean no disrespect, I am just calling this for what it is........it is apparent that what you are doing, is saying that you believe V1 but that V1 does not apply in this crisis, hence, *as I see it,* you decide to make V1 meaningless in order to keep the sede opinion to be true. So I'm not the one with unorthodox beliefs because I believe and have only repeated verbatim the teaching of V1.

Until this recent crisis, the longest interregnum was around 3 years. Echoing Ladislaus, please provide us with a time frame that you believe is too long? Is 5 years too long? Is 15 years too long? Is 50 years too long? Is a 100 years too long? Also, please give a reference to support your time constraint.

As IllyricuмSacrum said in the above post, perpetual is not synonymous with continuous.


Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2026, 10:16:47 PM »
So, the onus is on those who claim that 67 years is "too long".  I actually think it's less, since I hold that Siri was legitimate Pope ... until his death in 1989.

But if you claim 67 years is too long, then you have to provide numberr.  Is 50 years too long, 20, 10 ... or how about 7 years 6 months 3 days 12 hours 15 minutes and 25.7 seconds?

There's no way to really do that.  You'd have t come up with some alternative criterion than time, which is arbitrary, where in one sense 3 years or 50 years make no difference.

Jew antipopes qualify as destructive interregnums, and the prototype for our last 68 years (at least) would be antipope Anacletus II. 




Anacletus II, born Pietro Pierleoni Judas Cyriacus, was a Jєωιѕн antipope
who ruled in opposition to Pope Innocent II from 1130 until his death in 1138.




Online Stubborn

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Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2026, 05:31:56 AM »
Until this recent crisis, the longest interregnum was around 3 years. Echoing Ladislaus, please provide us with a time frame that you believe is too long? Is 5 years too long? Is 15 years too long? Is 50 years too long? Is a 100 years too long? Also, please give a reference to support your time constraint.

As IllyricuмSacrum said in the above post, perpetual is not synonymous with continuous.
I asked you to provide us with a time frame that you believe is too long, the onus is on you, not me - I already said "I don't care either way, all I want is a clear answer to a clear question" to which you answered: "I don’t know how long an interregnum can last." So we're good there.

The thing is that yes, you are of course correct, we do not  know how long and interregnum can last, which is to say we do not know how long it takes after the pope dies until the new pope is elected - interregnum means the time between the death of one pope and the election of a new pope. That's what the word 'interregnum' means.

Per the teaching of V1, which is what this thread is about, the divine law of perpetual succession is broken when we say "that the Roman pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter" this is why V1 condemns it with anathema. That is V1's teaching. 

If we are to adhere to the idea of sedeism, we must 1) assign an altogether new meaning to the word interregnum and 2) we must also erase the entirety of V1's teaching quoted in the OP to make it as if they never said what they said. 

If we say that both, the new meaning of interregnum and the erasure of V1's teaching is necessary due to the crisis, or that the erasure is only temporary or on hold and will be in force again - we just don't know when, then you must admit that these 2 steps are inherent in  the idea of sedeism - otherwise the idea of sedeism fails for being contrary to the clear teaching of V1.   

Online Stubborn

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Re: Sedevacantism and Vatican I
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2026, 05:36:06 AM »
From WorldAway

Quote from: Stubborn on July 11, 2026, 03:18:41 PM
Quote
I am not inserting my opinion...

Quote from: Stubborn on July 11, 2026, 03:18:41 PM
Quote
...the pope, in this case Leo XIV...
Your implying to start with a vacant chair, which maintains and ends with a vacant chair, which is contrary to V1.