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Author Topic: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.  (Read 9384 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2023, 05:47:07 AM »
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  • In other words you are claiming that the NO church is synonymous with the Catholic Church and is actually the same “infallible teaching authority” for nearly 2000 years?

     If this is the correct understanding of what you are trying to convey, then the Church has no real teaching function other than making dogmatic pronouncements every hundred years or so. If this is the correct understanding, the Church can have councils that contradict previous infallible teachings, give dubious sacraments, give encyclicals, bulls and other docuмents that promote not only error, but encourage sin.

    Are you sure that’s the road you want to go down?
    "Woe to the shepherds that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture sayeth the Lord"

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #61 on: December 31, 2023, 05:57:35 AM »
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  • Do you agree with this?: Infallibility is not limited to excathadra pronouncements. .

    Do you agree with this?: Everything that is infallible does not necessarily have a dogmatic definition.
    You think to trap me, you devil QVD, by then turning the tables and telling me I reject the definition.

    However, this definition refers to the charism of infallibility by which the Pope, by a special assistance from the Holy Ghost, which is both positive and negative assistance, that assistance which was promised to him by Our Lord in the person of Peter, is infallible when defining questions of faith and morals. Outside of that, infallibility is only guaranteed by Tradition, that which is held everywhere and by all in space and in time. The pope does not enjoy this assistance outside of the Extraordinary Magisterium,

    "The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.)... the Vatican Council defined: 'The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra - that is, when in discharge of the office of Pastor and Doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the Universal Church - by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of the consent of the Church. D 1839 cf D 466, 694, 1833-35'. For the proper understanding of the dogma the following points must be noted:... (b) the object of his infallibility is his teaching concerning Faith and Morals... (c) The condition of the Infallibility is that the Pope speaks ex cathedra. For this is required:  a. That he speak as pastor and teacher of all the faithful with the full weight of his supreme apostolic authority; if he speaks as private theologian or as the bishop of his diocese, he is not infallible; b. That he have the intention of deciding finally a teaching of Faith or Morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful. Without this intention, which must be made clear in the formulation, or by the circuмstances, a decision ex cathedra is not complete. Most of the doctrinal expressions made by the Popes in their encyclicals are not decisions ex cathedra. d. The source of his assistance is the supernatural assistance of the Holy Ghost, Who protects the  supreme teacher of the Church from error... The Holy Ghost preserves the bearer of the supreme teaching office of the Church from a false decision (negative assistance) and leads him, where necessary, by external and internal grace to the right knowledge and correct statement of the truth (positive assistance)... cf D 1836" - Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Part II, Ch 2, No 8.



    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #62 on: December 31, 2023, 06:13:34 AM »
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  • You think to trap me, you devil QVD, by then turning the tables and telling me I reject the definition.

    However, this definition refers to the charism of infallibility by which the Pope, by a special assistance from the Holy Ghost, which is both positive and negative assistance, that assistance which was promised to him by Our Lord in the person of Peter, is infallible when defining questions of faith and morals. Outside of that, infallibility is only guaranteed by Tradition, that which is held everywhere and by all in space and in time. The pope does not enjoy this assistance outside of the Extraordinary Magisterium,

    "The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.)... the Vatican Council defined: 'The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra - that is, when in discharge of the office of Pastor and Doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the Universal Church - by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of the consent of the Church. D 1839 cf D 466, 694, 1833-35'. For the proper understanding of the dogma the following points must be noted:... (b) the object of his infallibility is his teaching concerning Faith and Morals... (c) The condition of the Infallibility is that the Pope speaks ex cathedra. For this is required:  a. That he speak as pastor and teacher of all the faithful with the full weight of his supreme apostolic authority; if he speaks as private theologian or as the bishop of his diocese, he is not infallible; b. That he have the intention of deciding finally a teaching of Faith or Morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful. Without this intention, which must be made clear in the formulation, or by the circuмstances, a decision ex cathedra is not complete. Most of the doctrinal expressions made by the Popes in their encyclicals are not decisions ex cathedra. d. The source of his assistance is the supernatural assistance of the Holy Ghost, Who protects the  supreme teacher of the Church from error... The Holy Ghost preserves the bearer of the supreme teaching office of the Church from a false decision (negative assistance) and leads him, where necessary, by external and internal grace to the right knowledge and correct statement of the truth (positive assistance)... cf D 1836" - Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Part II, Ch 2, No 8.

    Do you have to use ad hominem attacks?

    You didn’t answer the questions, you just attacked me and called me a devil.

     I never suggested that you denied the definition of Papal Infallibility. I was trying to make you understand that it’s not only ex cathedra pronouncments that are infallible and that we must obey all teachings (fallible or infallible) coming from the Church. All teachings coming from the Church are, at the very least, infallibly safe.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #63 on: December 31, 2023, 06:29:51 AM »
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  • Do you have to use ad hominem attacks?

    You didn’t answer the questions, you just attacked me and called me a devil.

     I never suggested that you denied the definition of Papal Infallibility. I was trying to make you understand that it’s not only ex cathedra pronouncments that are infallible and that we must obey all teachings (fallible or infallible) coming from the Church. All teachings coming from the Church are, at the very least, infallibly safe.
    Oh, sorry about that QVD, I meant it good naturedly, sorry if that didn't come across, no attack meant at all.
    I thought I answered the question though.
    I would just add that if it is not infallible teaching, then it is by that very fact fallible, and that means it can be downright wrong!!!
    Yes, indeed, we must not refuse papal teaching simply because it is not infallible, as you have quoted Pope Pius XII as saying, but that is not to say that we may not, if we have serious grounds, 'resist Peter to his face'.
    So we obviously disagree on your last statement about 'infallibly safe', which is why, I guess, you say he's not Pope, and Archbishop Lefebvre said that we can't go that far, that that is not what Vatican I taught, that is not the meaning of Infallibility. I, for one, cannot understand why some of the sedevacantists do not have more respect for the Archbishop on this question of Papal Infallibility. He was no modernist. He was a champion of Tradition. He trained in Rome in an antimodernist seminary in the wake of the Vatican I Council and the papacy of St Pius X. It is a mystery to me that so many think they understand this question better than he. And yet one does not have to look far to verify that what he held to was the teaching of the Church.

    Offline Bl Alojzije Stepinac

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #64 on: December 31, 2023, 06:42:08 AM »
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  • I was wondering something after reading these posts about R & R, papal infalibility, Church infalibility, sedevacantism. 
    When we say "Church condemned antiquarianism", that means it was pope Pius XII. that condemn that as error or heresy in one of his encyclical. I didn't find anywhere that Catholic Chruch condemned it before Pius XII. Maybe some of members could know about it, or find some older docuмent.
    Do all R & R and sedevacantist conclude that this was infalible teaching? Is it teaching of a pope or Catholic Church? I think it was both, but it's not "ex cathedra". Ladislaus does have a point that if one day we would have a pope like Pius X. or Leo XIII., the same argument could use neomodernists, liberal bishops to reject that teaching about antiquarianism, or "Syllabus of Errors". Or when future holy pope (Angelic Pontiff maybe), condems Vatican II, New Mass, new Canon law, rites of sacraments, etc. 
    They would be in error as they are now. They would intepret Magisterium and not the pope. I'm not sedevacantist, but every position has "pro et contra" arguments. 
    Let's not call someone a heretic because of that. I believe that fr. Chazal is trying to point out. Many traditionalist lack charity, understanding the other persons when engaging these discussions. We need to do more prayer and penance than debates. 

    This crisis has no theological, moral or any kind of manual to follow. 


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #65 on: December 31, 2023, 06:59:15 AM »
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  • Do you have to use ad hominem attacks?

    You didn’t answer the questions, you just attacked me and called me a devil.

     I never suggested that you denied the definition of Papal Infallibility. I was trying to make you understand that it’s not only ex cathedra pronouncments that are infallible and that we must obey all teachings (fallible or infallible) coming from the Church. All teachings coming from the Church are, at the very least, infallibly safe.
    Not a surprise given that's how PV started to "answer" the OP right from the start:   

    Well, it is a very novel way of explaining to us why you reject the dogma of Papal Infallibility as defined by the Church. And look at the gallery of heretics surrounding him, egging him on and upvoting his post.

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #66 on: December 31, 2023, 07:04:25 AM »
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  • You've also never refuted the quote from Archbishop Lefebvre where he stated that the papacy is guided by the Holy Ghost and protected in such a way as to preclude the degree of destruction perpetrated by the Conciliar Church.
    To be honest, I'm having trouble keeping up with it all! Would you give me that reference again please Lad. Also, please explain to me why the Archbishop did not reach your conclusion if this is what he said. That is, why did he continue to presume in favour of the validity of the Pope right up to his dying day?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #67 on: December 31, 2023, 07:24:37 AM »
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  • Oh, sorry about that QVD, I meant it good naturedly, sorry if that didn't come across, no attack meant at all.
    I thought I answered the question though.
    I would just add that if it is not infallible teaching, then it is by that very fact fallible, and that means it can be downright wrong!!!
    Yes, indeed, we must not refuse papal teaching simply because it is not infallible, as you have quoted Pope Pius XII as saying, but that is not to say that we may not, if we have serious grounds, 'resist Peter to his face'.
    So we obviously disagree on your last statement about 'infallibly safe', which is why, I guess, you say he's not Pope, and Archbishop Lefebvre said that we can't go that far, that that is not what Vatican I taught, that is not the meaning of Infallibility. I, for one, cannot understand why some of the sedevacantists do not have more respect for the Archbishop on this question of Papal Infallibility. He was no modernist. He was a champion of Tradition. He trained in Rome in an antimodernist seminary in the wake of the Vatican I Council and the papacy of St Pius X. It is a mystery to me that so many think they understand this question better than he. And yet one does not have to look far to verify that what he held to was the teaching of the Church.


    Ok, no worries about the “devil” “attack”. 

    So, what is meant by “infallibly safe” is that the object *can’t* be detrimental to ones salvation. For instance, Pope Gregory XVI gave the approbation of Saint Alphonsus’ teachings when he decreed that professors of theology could safely teach any opinion of St. Alphonsus, and that confessors, without weighting reasons, could safely follow him. Obviously, there could conceivably be error in them, but they are infallibly safe to follow. Does this make sense?

    My argument for sedevacantism is not based solely on what we’ve been hashing out, but also on the fact that a pertinacious and manifest heretic is not a member of the Catholic Church and thus a nonmember cannot be the head of which he is not a member of. Incidentally, the Archbishop, understood this and at one point, at least, was ready to declare the see vacant. This is a fact that cannot be denied.
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #68 on: December 31, 2023, 07:55:42 AM »
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  • Why is there still a focus on Papal Infallibility when Pius IX speaks of Church infallibility/indefectibility as the reason why Old Catholics were condemned?  And why is there still the accusation that sedes do not accept Papal Infallibility when it's just not true?

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #69 on: December 31, 2023, 08:05:38 AM »
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  • Why is there still a focus on Papal Infallibility when Pius IX speaks of Church infallibility/indefectibility as the reason why Old Catholics were condemned?  And why is there still the accusation that sedes do not accept Papal Infallibility when it's just not true?

    Absolutely! I also pointed this out several posts ago. I’ve never heard sedevacantists being accused of denying the dogma of Papal Infallibility before now. I think that PV was suggesting that because we don’t limit infallibility to ex Cathedra pronouncements, we deny the dogma. 
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #70 on: December 31, 2023, 10:02:38 AM »
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  • I was wondering something after reading these posts about R & R, papal infalibility, Church infalibility, sedevacantism.
    When we say "Church condemned antiquarianism", that means it was pope Pius XII. that condemn that as error or heresy in one of his encyclical. I didn't find anywhere that Catholic Chruch condemned it before Pius XII. Maybe some of members could know about it, or find some older docuмent.
    Do all R & R and sedevacantist conclude that this was infalible teaching? Is it teaching of a pope or Catholic Church? I think it was both, but it's not "ex cathedra". Ladislaus does have a point that if one day we would have a pope like Pius X. or Leo XIII., the same argument could use neomodernists, liberal bishops to reject that teaching about antiquarianism, or "Syllabus of Errors". Or when future holy pope (Angelic Pontiff maybe), condems Vatican II, New Mass, new Canon law, rites of sacraments, etc.
    They would be in error as they are now. They would intepret Magisterium and not the pope. I'm not sedevacantist, but every position has "pro et contra" arguments.
    Let's not call someone a heretic because of that. I believe that fr. Chazal is trying to point out. Many traditionalist lack charity, understanding the other persons when engaging these discussions. We need to do more prayer and penance than debates.

    This crisis has no theological, moral or any kind of manual to follow.
    Ok, first, PPXII condemned antiquarianism, which far as I can see means something along the lines of "antiquity above everything" and if we said it was condemned by the Church, then that condemnation has history, iow, it's either been explicitly condemned previously, and/or the condemnation is universal, which is to say "condemned for the whole Church always and everywhere."

    The reason for the condemnation is that antiquarianism is a sin. When the pope defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, then that definition is infallible. Antiquarianism, being a sin, is immoral, so the condemnation is in regards to morals, making the condemnation infallible. This is my opinion.

    Lad does not have a point, he would have a point if the magisterium could be corrupt or be a source of corruption, but that is impossible, because the teaching and condemnation of antiquarianism is in the Magisterium
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #71 on: December 31, 2023, 03:03:16 PM »
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  • This Sedevacantist "X" account writes that some Sedevacantists misunderstand what is meant by "infallibly safe":



    Source

    Offline Hank Igitur

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #72 on: December 31, 2023, 03:40:11 PM »
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  • The issue is why sedevacantists, just like the Old Catholics, refuse the definition of Papal Infallibility of Vatican I and try to make the Pope infallible without any conditions.
    You may have missed the other thread where I cornered Ladislaus and he started this thread as a ruse to dodge the question.
    I wasn't aware that sedevacantists refuse the definition of Papal Infallibility of Vatican I. I know that the Old Catholics outright reject it, however, I'm not sure exactly how sedevacantists refuse said definition. I didn't know you actually cornered Ladislaus on this issue.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #73 on: December 31, 2023, 04:35:25 PM »
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  • I wasn't aware that sedevacantists refuse the definition of Papal Infallibility of Vatican I. I know that the Old Catholics outright reject it, however, I'm not sure exactly how sedevacantists refuse said definition. I didn't know you actually cornered Ladislaus on this issue.

    He cornered nothing.  He's making that gratuitous claim because he has no actual Catholic argument to offer.

    Nor has he ever refuted Archbishop Lefebvre's statement that the Holy Ghost's protection over the papacy precludes this level of destruction.

    He keeps making the absurd claim (based on logical fallacy) that we reject papal infallibility because we believe that there are other protections over the Papacy and the Church than the strict limits of infallibility defined at Vatican I.  There's also disciplinary infallibility, covering the Mass, Canon Law, and the canonization of saints that the vast majority of theologians teach, and Cardinal Franzelin (along with Msgr. Fenton) both taught the notion of infallible safety ... so I guess all those theologians are also heretics.

    Plenus here pretends that because it's all that VI defined, VI was implicitly defining that there's no OTHER type of infallibility besides that which was defined at VI.

    This thread was about the larger indefectibility of the Church, in which papal infallibility is actually rooted.  R&R were claiming that the Magisterium has never taught indefectibility and that it was something I basically made up ... except that Pius IX taught that indefectibility of the Church was the reason that the Old Catholics were heretics for rejecting papal infallibility (since it can't be because of papal infallibility).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: R&R: Explain why the Old Catholics were wrong.
    « Reply #74 on: December 31, 2023, 04:43:18 PM »
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  • I wasn't aware that sedevacantists refuse the definition of Papal Infallibility of Vatican I. I know that the Old Catholics outright reject it, however, I'm not sure exactly how sedevacantists refuse said definition. I didn't know you actually cornered Ladislaus on this issue.

    Here's his (absurd) argument.

    VI defined that the Pope is infallible when A (notes of infallibility) and that this also defines that the Pope is not infallible EXCEPT for A.  So all the theologians that hold to disciplinary infallibility, infallibility of canonizations, infallibility regarding the Mass (which includes the vast majority of theologians), and infallible safety ... that these are all heretics for rejecting Vatican I.  It's rare to find so fallacious an argument, even coming from R&R.