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Author Topic: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium  (Read 2958 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2024, 08:21:40 AM »
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  • That's exactly right.  These posters either 1) didn't even read Fenton, 2) have very poor reading comprehension skills, 3) feel the need to distort Fenton in order to refute their false strawman representation of what he actually said.  It's probably some combination of these 3 factors.  Then there was the typical Stubbornian gratuitous dismissal of Fenton as being "no good" (in the past he's dismissed all "19th and 20th century theologians").  When Stubborn produces a screenshot of his doctorate in theology, I might spent 2 seconds considering his claims.

    Fenton was speaking about an aspect of the Church's indefectibility, that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from leading souls into grave, substantial error, since such a thing would be incompatible with the promises of Our Lord for the papacy and for the Church (as Vatican I taught and as Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).

    +Lefebvre:


    You'd be making a big mistake requiring credentials before considering the argument of a member here (who pretty much all have the Catholic faith). To base wisdom on "credentials" is the mark of the Pharisees:


    Quote
    John 7:41-47

     41 Others said: This is the Christ. But some said: Doth the Christ come out of Galilee?  42 Doth not the scripture say: That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem the town where David was?  43 So there arose a dissension among the people because of him.  44 And some of them would have apprehended him: but no man laid hands on him.  45 The ministers therefore came to the chief priests and the Pharisees. And they said to them: Why have you not brought him?


    46 The ministers answered: Never did man speak like this man.  47 The Pharisees therefore answered them: Are you also seduced?  48 Hath any one of the rulers believed in him, or of the Pharisees?  49 But this multitude, that knoweth not the law, are accursed.

     Stubborn's "claims" - as Fenton's, as Lapide's, as Haydock's, etc. - those of anyone else - are entitled to the same consideration as the claims of any man:



    Quote
    For the reasonings of any men whatsoever, even though they be Catholics, and of high reputation, are not to be treated by us in the same way as the canonical Scriptures are treated. We are at liberty, without doing any violence to the respect which these men deserve, to condemn and reject anything in their writings, if perchance we shall find that they have entertained opinions differing from that which others or we ourselves have, by the divine help, discovered to be the truth. I deal thus with the writings of others, and I wish my intelligent readers to deal thus with mine.


    Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 1534). Kindle Edition.

    How very "Protestant" of St. Augustine, eh?

    If the great doctor, Blessed Augustine, says that of himself and his own writings, who is Fenton or anyone else? Stubborn or anyone else might be speaking truth "by divine help," and worth a listen.

    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
    « Reply #47 on: January 03, 2024, 08:43:36 AM »
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  • Quote
    Fenton was speaking about an aspect of the Church's indefectibility, that the Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from leading souls into grave, substantial error, since such a thing would be incompatible with the promises of Our Lord for the papacy and for the Church (as Vatican I taught and as Archbishop Lefebvre affirmed).
    The pope is only infallible or "infallibly safe" when he (to use Fenton's explanations) is

    a) issuing a directive/command,  (which implies it is of a binding nature, which implies sin is involved for disobedience)
    b) to the entire Church

    This is why one can say Quo Primum is "infallibly safe", for since it does not deal directly with doctrine/morals, Pope St Pius V makes it clear (multiple times) he is enforcing a law, using his apostolic authority to command that, only his missal can be used (with certain exceptions), which directive applies to the entire Church.

    Any papal act outside of the above, which does not fulfill the conditions, is not infallible/infallibly safe.

    I've been saying this for YEARS.  Glad Fenton backs me up, because I read this from other theologians/books.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
    « Reply #48 on: January 03, 2024, 02:31:27 PM »
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  • The pope is only infallible or "infallibly safe" when he (to use Fenton's explanations) is

    a) issuing a directive/command,  (which implies it is of a binding nature, which implies sin is involved for disobedience)
    b) to the entire Church

    This is why one can say Quo Primum is "infallibly safe", for since it does not deal directly with doctrine/morals, Pope St Pius V makes it clear (multiple times) he is enforcing a law, using his apostolic authority to command that, only his missal can be used (with certain exceptions), which directive applies to the entire Church.

    Any papal act outside of the above, which does not fulfill the conditions, is not infallible/infallibly safe.

    I've been saying this for YEARS.  Glad Fenton backs me up, because I read this from other theologians/books.

    Except that you completely butcher what Fenton wrote in order to make infallible safety identical to infallibility.  He speaking specifically about the "non-infallible" teachings and commands given to the Universal Church.
    Quote
    ... God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.
    ...
    Ultimately, however, this assent is not the same as the one demanded in the formal act of faith. Strictly speaking, it is possible that this teaching (proposed in the encyclical letter) is subject to error. There are a thousand reasons to believe that it is not. It has probably never been (erroneous), and it is normally certain that it will never be. But, absolutely speaking, it could be, because God does not guarantee it as He guarantees the teaching formulated by way of definition’.

    He's speaking in this article particularly about things like Papal Encyclicals, which generally do not contain teaching that's infallible according to the Vatican I definition and says basically that God's protection over Papal Magisterium would prevent those who accept it from having their faith harmed, and that a "subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous".

    We've had the V2 Antipopes teaching religious indifferentism, ecuмenism, religious liberty, etc. for 60+ years in many series of "Encyclicals" spanning numerous popes.  Fenton is talking about a "body of doctrine" such as what the V2 Antipopes have produced.  That's the kind of thing that Fenton would hold to be "infallibly safe" even if any given Encyclical does contain a formal definition that meets the notes of infallibility set forth by Vatican I.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
    « Reply #49 on: January 03, 2024, 02:35:39 PM »
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  • You'd be making a big mistake requiring credentials before considering the argument of a member here (who pretty much all have the Catholic faith). To base wisdom on "credentials" is the mark of the Pharisees:

    No, I require credentials not in general (since obviously none of us have them) but, rather, from the armchair theologians who would deride the work of an actual theologian as "nonsense".  It's one thing to disagree, and even Fenton admits that it's perfectly acceptable to disagree with theologians, but quite another for some hack with barely a proficiency with a Penny Catechism to deride it as "nonsense".  Msgr. Fenton might be wrong here (though he's not), but only those who don't understand what he's actually saying deride it as nonsense.  It's the same hubris displayed by those who deride Bishop Guerard des Lauriers' Thesis as "idiotic" or "nonsensical" ... when most of those who make the claim have not read his thesis, barely understand what's in it, etc.  While he could be mistaken, I doubt that the thinking of arguably-the-top theologian in the Church before Vatican II would be "idiotic" or "nonsense".


    Offline OABrownson1876

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    Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
    « Reply #50 on: January 03, 2024, 03:04:44 PM »
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  • I have read about six of Msgr. Fenton's articles on the subjects of EENS and the Church.  He did clarify in one article that Pius XII's reference to the "soul of the church" did not mean some form of "invisible membership."  This was a distinction that was needed.  My problem with Fenton is his reluctance to come to the defense of Fr. Feeney, a priest who told the Bostonian intelligentsia that they must become Catholic to be saved.  Msgr. Fenton died July 7, 1969, two months after the promulgation of Paul VI's Missale Romanum, the supposed official institution of the New Mass.  It would be interesting to know if Fenton had an opinion on this issue.  Dr. Patrick Carey says of Fenton, "When Fr. Leonard Feeney said that only Catholics could be saved, Fenton wrote a book against his error." He was referring to the book, The Catholic Church and Salvation (1958). Fenton actually served as the peritus to Cardinal Ottaviani, author of the Ottaviani Intervention. https://www.firstthings.com/article/2018/04/fenton-returns. (article on Fenton by Dr. Carey) 

    I remember one of my professors at UL, a former Catholic priest (ordained in 1961); he had a doctorate from a Pontifical university in Canada, and all his classes were taught in Latin.  He could speak Latin conversationally.  He was from a large, pre-Vatican II, Catholic family. And yet here he was, a laicized priest, "married," teaching at a secular college.  And I think of all those seminary professors, college dons, Catholic intellectuals who abandoned the Faith in the aftermath of the Council and the New Mass.  Their intellects were sharp, but their wills were dulled by sin. God help us in the battle to come because I fear things will grow much darker than even our current "Franciscan" debacle.  
    Bryan Shepherd, M.A. Phil.
    PO Box 17248
    2312 S. Preston
    Louisville, Ky. 40217; email:letsgobryan@protonmail.com. substack: bryanshepherd.substack.com
    website: www.orestesbrownson.org. Rumble: rumble.com/user/Orestes76

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: The Pope's Infallible Magisterium
    « Reply #51 on: January 03, 2024, 03:29:48 PM »
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  • Quote
    He's speaking in this article particularly about things like Papal Encyclicals, which generally do not contain teaching that's infallible according to the Vatican I definition and says basically that God's protection over Papal Magisterium would prevent those who accept it from having their faith harmed,
    1.  Fenton's "pious belief" that God would protect the papal magisterium from error is the same as +Bellarmine's "pious belief" that the pope can not fall into heresy.  An opinion, however strong, from a theologian is still an opinion.


    2.  A papal encyclical is not part of the papal magisterium, unless the pope is commanding something from the entire church.  100% of all post-V2 encyclicals do not command anything, nor do they apply to the universal church.  Thus, V2 encyclicals (and arguably 100% of the entire post-V2 magisterium) is not formally part of the papal magisterium.

    3.  Again, you're expanding the papal magisterium to non-commands, non-directives and things which apply to only PART of the Church.  That's a contradictory definition.