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Poll

How low can the hierarchy go before the visibility of the Church is destroyed?

Pope in Rome - always, 50+ college of cardinals, bishops in every See, a priest in every parish - no exceptions!
1 (4.3%)
College of cardinals necessary to elect a pope, majority of bishops installed in Sees, a large amount of priests
1 (4.3%)
A way to elect a pope (clergy or people of Rome), Diocesan Sees can be empty, but at least 1 rouge Catholic bishop to consecrate priests is necessary.
6 (26.1%)
1 valid bishop - doesn't even have to be Catholic (Orthodox, etc.) he just needs to be able to ordain/consecrate someone who is Catholic
3 (13%)
No living priests or bishops - Christ Himself as High Priest could come down from heaven and designate a man pope and ordain/consecrate him.
1 (4.3%)
The visibility of the Church in relation to the amount of the hierarchy is not strictly defined for every given circuмstance.
7 (30.4%)
Please post your address so I can send you poisoned cookies for Christmas
4 (17.4%)

Total Members Voted: 22

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Offline Johannes

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Poll: The visibility of the Church: how low can we go?
« on: November 26, 2024, 09:34:00 AM »
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    • Quote

    Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ.
    St. Athanasius

    :confused: How low can we go :confused:

    What is the bare minimum that the hierarchy could shrink to in order for the visibility of the Church to be destroyed and the Indefectibility of the Church to fail (if such a thing was even possible)? True "iron rations" - if you will. We are not talking about heretics holding offices, but actually losing office altogether, or if we suffered a worldwide death event, comet, super volcano, violent persecution of Catholics, etc.

    Also, please add your votes to these other related polls if you haven't done so:

    Poll: Can the pope teach error(s) to the Church?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/poll-can-the-pope-teach-error(s)-to-the-church/

    Poll: Are heretics members of the Catholic Church?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/poll-are-heretics-members-of-the-catholic-church/

    Poll: Francis shows up at mass tomorrow, what do you do?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/francis-shows-up-for-mass-tomorrow-what-do-you-do/

    Poll: What did Vatican II teach?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/poll-what-did-vatican-ii-teach/

    Poll: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/are-we-in-the-great-apostasy/


    Some sources: to consider (feel free to add your own):


    Source: https://archive.org/details/vannoortvol2christschurch/page/n91/mode/2up




    1874 Catechism:
    http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/familiar.htm#P1Lvi

    Lesson VI.—Marks of the Church

    Q. How many churches did Christ establish?
    A. He established only one Church.

    Q. How do we know this?
    A. Because He said to St. Peter: "Upon thee I will build My Church."

    Q. Was it a visible or an invisible Church that Christ established?
    A. Christ established a visible Church.

    Q. How do we know this?
    A. Because Christ has commanded us "to lay our complaints before the Church, that is, before her pastors, and abide by her decision" (Matt. xviii. 17); and because an invisible Church could neither teach the law of God nor administer the sacraments.

    Q. How does it follow from this that Christ's Church is visible?
    A. Because our Lord cannot command us to lay our complaints before invisible pastors.

    Q. How, then, is the Church of Christ visible?
    A. She is visible because all her pastors and members are visible and have always suffered persecution because they were members of the Church of Christ.

    Q. For how many years was this visible Church of Christ to last?
    A. It was to last to the end of the world.

    Q. How do we know this?
    A. Because Jesus Christ said that His Church should last to the end of the world.

    Q. What are his words?
    A. "Behold I am with you all days, even to the end of the world" (Matt. xxviii. 20); and, "The gates of hell shall not prevail against my church." Matt. xvi. 18.

    Q. What would happen, then, if the Church were not to last to the end of the world?
    A. Jesus Christ would have told an untruth; to say which would be blasphemous.






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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Poll: The visibility of the Church: how low can we go?
    « Reply #1 on: November 26, 2024, 09:44:28 AM »
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    • A rogue bishop is someone like Bishop Strickland.  (At least under some assumptions.)  A rouge bishop probably refers to a cross-dresser.

    (I normally refrain from pointing out typos, but in this case both possibilities exist, so it is useful to clarify.)
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Poll: The visibility of the Church: how low can we go?
    « Reply #2 on: November 26, 2024, 10:16:27 AM »
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    • ^^^ ha. ha. ha. yeah, OK... Make up your mind, please. Are you here to raise carefully considered questions for discussion or are you bouncing off the walls for lulz & giggles. (You do know that there's a long-running CathInfo section for the latter sort of thing?)

    Nothing absolutely wrong with measured moments of irony/humor amid the seriousness. But rather than expect others to follow along with the ricochet, maybe try to discern within yourself which mode you're in at the moment that you post. Old Bergo's fair game, to be clear, but the cuмulative pattern since you showed up here is getting kinda tiresome already.
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    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Poll: The visibility of the Church: how low can we go?
    « Reply #3 on: November 26, 2024, 12:21:31 PM »
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    Online Incredulous

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    Re: Poll: The visibility of the Church: how low can we go?
    « Reply #4 on: December 21, 2024, 06:35:56 PM »
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    • In struggling to understand and cope with ʝʊdɛօ-masonic hijacking and resulting schism within the Holy See, wasn’t it the Dominican theologian, Bp. Geraud de Lauriers who pointed out, that “visibility” was not a mark of the Church?
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi
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