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Author Topic: In Memory of Thuc by Gerard des Lauriers  (Read 7847 times)

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Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Re: In Memory of Thuc by Gerard des Lauriers
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2024, 03:57:02 PM »
Actually, this book cnannot be recommended. It is a work of calumny against Bishop Thuc. The author is an Anglican "priest" of sorts who is not a friend of the Catholic Church.
Jarvis' biography is the best academic work on Msgr. Thuc. Yes, the author has biases that come through in the text, but an educated adult should be able to navigate biases.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: In Memory of Thuc by Gerard des Lauriers
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2024, 04:39:36 PM »
Jarvis' biography is the best academic work on Msgr. Thuc. Yes, the author has biases that come through in the text, but an educated adult should be able to navigate biases.

I saw this intro on Amazon (the very first sentence) ... not sure who wrote it.
Quote
Sedevacantism, American Catholicism’s only homegrown "new religious movement" (NRM), argues that the Catholic Church has sunk into heresy at the hands of false popes.

That's not even close to true, in general, but even about sedevacantism.  There were early Sedevacantists all over the world, particularly in Mexico, but elsewhere as well.

Not to mention that, no, we do not hold that "the Catholic Church" has sunk into heresy ... that's precisely the point of SVism.

If Jarvis wrote this, then he's discredited in the very first sentence.


Re: In Memory of Thuc by Gerard des Lauriers
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2024, 05:17:01 PM »
https://tuannyriver.com/2018/08/08/ngo-dinh-thuc-anticommunist-and-ambitious-builder/

Ngô Đình Thục: anticommunist and ambitious builder
Thuc funeral of niece
Paris, April 1967: Archbishop Thục officiating the funeral of his niece Ngô Đình Lệ Thủy, who was killed during an auto accident. On the right are Madame Nhu and her son. ~ pc manhhai on flick

I have been looking into Marian devotionalism in South Vietnam, and one figure that has emerged large is Ngô Đình Thục, the Archbishop of Huế and older brother of Ngô Đình Diệm. It is well known that Thục was intent on building a national Marian center at La Vang, the site of apparitions to persecuted Catholics in the late eighteenth century and the nineteenth century. (In Misalliance, Ed Miller notes this development in passing and mentions that Buddhist leaders were “dismayed” by Thục’s decision.)  Nonetheless, reading about the late prelate’s involvement with La Vang made me see more fully the scope of his desires and designs.
There were, of course, many things about Marian devotion in South Vietnam, and one should be careful not to overplay Thục’s role. That said, it is clear that he occupied a unique position in the Vietnamese Church during the late 1950s and early 1960s. Thục’s training and preparation was as good as any Vietnamese cleric could have received at the time. After minor and major seminaries in Indochina, he underwent further studies in Rome that yielded top honors in four subjects and doctorates in theology and Canon Law. His main sponsor, Bishop Eugène Marie Joseph Allys (called Lý among Vietnamese), had high hopes for the young priest and he did not disappoint. After stints of teaching at Catholic high schools and co-editorship of the first journal for Vietnamese clergy, Thục was appointed by the Vatican to lead one of the southern vicariates. At forty years old and merely twelve and a half years after priestly ordination, he became the third Vietnamese bishop.  The year was 1938, which is another way of saying that Thục independently made his marks long before his younger brother became the first president of the Republic of Vietnam. In fact, as detailed in Miller’s book, Thục’s influence and connections played a crucial role in helping Diệm gain support abroad during the early 1950s. 
Turning to a different book, this blog had praised Charles Keith’s monograph on Vietnamese Catholicism for its wealth of information about the associational culture during late colonialism. I wish to praise it again, this time for locating some very interesting information about Thục’s life. Notably, as bishop of the apostolic vicariate (later diocese) of Vĩnh Long, Thục was, in Keith’s words, “one of most important figures in the spread of Catholic youth and worker associations in Cochichina.” He also pushed for greater involvement among the laity and later became one of the biggest supporters of Catholic Action in Vietnam. From all appearances, he was an able builder and, possibly, a solid administrator. Vĩnh Long might have a smaller player in the Catholic landscape during late colonialism and the early independent period. Thục’s performance, however, meant that he was destined for greater roles.
Thục’s ambition, indeed, was to be the leader of the Archdiocese of Saigon, the largest and wealthiest of all dioceses in Vietnam during 1954-1975. This seat also offered the likeliest route to the cardinalate. Given the structure of ecclesiastical hierarchy and the postcolonial context, one could hardly blame Thục for wanting to be the first Vietnamese cardinal. But it was not meant to be for the simple fact that his younger brother was occupying the government seat in Saigon. Diệm himself did not want Thục to be the Archbishop of Saigon, not wishing for further suspicion and accusation of family rule. The Vatican must have agreed, and Thục was assigned to Huế, where he had begun his life and ecclesiastical career.  (In 1976, Pope Paul VI made Trịnh Như Khuê, the Archbishop of Hanoi, the first Vietnamese cardinal. In a twist of sorts, Thục’s own nephew Nguyễn Văn Thuận became the fourth Vietnamese cardinal in 2001.) 
CThuc

Undated photo of Thục among Catholics in South Vietnam.
Now in his sixties, Thục immediately put himself to work in Huế. Among his priorities was the upgrading of the La Vang site, especially because it was scheduled to host the triennial pilgrimage festival only four months after his arrival to the archdiocese. Long story short, the site received a makeover of sorts then welcomed tens of thousands of pilgrims, including most bishops in South Vietnam, for nearly a week of prayer and celebration. Thục presided over the opening and closing masses, and led the dedication of the La Vang shrine, which Pope John XXIII had raised to the status of a minor basilica. It was probably the zenith of public glory for the Vietnamese prelate. 
This festival was also a site of anticommunist nationalism: a complex topic deserving its own blog post at some other time. For now, it suffices here to say that the success of the festival gave credence to the proposition that the Archbishop was, as Phi-Vân Nguyen calls him in an article published two years ago, “the country’s leading anti-communist.” I’d offer the qualification that he was South Vietnam’s leading anticommunist Catholic (or, if you prefer, leading Catholic anticommunist). In any event, Thục must have pulled all kinds of strings–including his clout as older brother of the president and “first among equals” of all bishops–to get the site remodeled in record time, then to organize, I think, the largest festival up to that time. 
In some respects, Thục was essentially an institutional builder. La Vang was only the most publicized and most ambitious among his projects, but there were more. He led the construction of a minor seminary and the remodeling of Saint Sulpice Seminary of Hue, the archdiocese’s offices, and the archbishop’s residence. In 1962, he unified five or six groups of the Lovers of the Cross–different sources give different numbers–under his jurisdiction into one institute called the Lovers of the Cross of Huế.  (Some members of this group became refugees in the U.S. after the Fall of Saigon. Click here for a recent post of mine about one of them.) They were impressive accomplishments, especially because his tenure in Huế was short: just a little over two years. Then the Second Vatican Council took him to Europe and permanent exile. Had it not been for the dramatic events of 1963, which were facilitated by Thục’s public and triumphant Catholic display of anniversaries, it is reasonable to think that he would have kept building a lot more, literally and figuratively, for the Archdiocese of Huế and the Vietnamese Church.
The problem, of course, is that Thục’s ambition was carried out in the most Buddhist region of Vietnam, which also happened to be the historical center of  Vietnamese Buddhist revival and Buddhist nationalism. He did not seem to demonstrate the kind of sensitivity towards Buddhist leaders that his younger brother Ngô Đình Cẩn, the unofficial governor of the region, had done. He addressed his announcements and speeches about La Vang to Catholics and non-Catholics alike–đồng bào lương giáo–as if thinking that non-Catholic Vietnamese would support the center because it was “national” and overlook the fact that it was “Marian.” What exactly led him into this line of thought should make for some interesting research or speculation.
Counter-factual history usually ends in futility, yet I can’t help wondering how things would turn out had the Vatican appointed Thục to Saigon instead of Huế.  
Click here for my post on the last years of Thục’s life.

Persto: This website is Vietnamese Novus Ordo, but they have some interesting material.



Re: In Memory of Thuc by Gerard des Lauriers
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2024, 05:29:26 AM »
https://tuannyriver.com/2018/08/08/ngo-dinh-thuc-anticommunist-and-ambitious-builder/

Ngô Đình Thục: anticommunist and ambitious builder
Thuc funeral of niece
Paris, April 1967: Archbishop Thục officiating the funeral of his niece Ngô Đình Lệ Thủy, who was killed during an auto accident. On the right are Madame Nhu and her son. ~ pc manhhai on flick

I have been looking into Marian devotionalism in South Vietnam, and one figure that has emerged large is Ngô Đình Thục, the Archbishop of Huế and older brother of Ngô Đình Diệm. It is well known that Thục was intent on building a national Marian center at La Vang, the site of apparitions to persecuted Catholics in the late eighteenth century and the nineteenth century. (In Misalliance, Ed Miller notes this development in passing and mentions that Buddhist leaders were “dismayed” by Thục’s decision.)  Nonetheless, reading about the late prelate’s involvement with La Vang made me see more fully the scope of his desires and designs.
There were, of course, many things about Marian devotion in South Vietnam, and one should be careful not to overplay Thục’s role. That said, it is clear that he occupied a unique position in the Vietnamese Church during the late 1950s and early 1960s. Thục’s training and preparation was as good as any Vietnamese cleric could have received at the time. After minor and major seminaries in Indochina, he underwent further studies in Rome that yielded top honors in four subjects and doctorates in theology and Canon Law. His main sponsor, Bishop Eugène Marie Joseph Allys (called Lý among Vietnamese), had high hopes for the young priest and he did not disappoint. After stints of teaching at Catholic high schools and co-editorship of the first journal for Vietnamese clergy, Thục was appointed by the Vatican to lead one of the southern vicariates. At forty years old and merely twelve and a half years after priestly ordination, he became the third Vietnamese bishop.  The year was 1938, which is another way of saying that Thục independently made his marks long before his younger brother became the first president of the Republic of Vietnam. In fact, as detailed in Miller’s book, Thục’s influence and connections played a crucial role in helping Diệm gain support abroad during the early 1950s.
Turning to a different book, this blog had praised Charles Keith’s monograph on Vietnamese Catholicism for its wealth of information about the associational culture during late colonialism. I wish to praise it again, this time for locating some very interesting information about Thục’s life. Notably, as bishop of the apostolic vicariate (later diocese) of Vĩnh Long, Thục was, in Keith’s words, “one of most important figures in the spread of Catholic youth and worker associations in Cochichina.” He also pushed for greater involvement among the laity and later became one of the biggest supporters of Catholic Action in Vietnam. From all appearances, he was an able builder and, possibly, a solid administrator. Vĩnh Long might have a smaller player in the Catholic landscape during late colonialism and the early independent period. Thục’s performance, however, meant that he was destined for greater roles.
Thục’s ambition, indeed, was to be the leader of the Archdiocese of Saigon, the largest and wealthiest of all dioceses in Vietnam during 1954-1975. This seat also offered the likeliest route to the cardinalate. Given the structure of ecclesiastical hierarchy and the postcolonial context, one could hardly blame Thục for wanting to be the first Vietnamese cardinal. But it was not meant to be for the simple fact that his younger brother was occupying the government seat in Saigon. Diệm himself did not want Thục to be the Archbishop of Saigon, not wishing for further suspicion and accusation of family rule. The Vatican must have agreed, and Thục was assigned to Huế, where he had begun his life and ecclesiastical career.  (In 1976, Pope Paul VI made Trịnh Như Khuê, the Archbishop of Hanoi, the first Vietnamese cardinal. In a twist of sorts, Thục’s own nephew Nguyễn Văn Thuận became the fourth Vietnamese cardinal in 2001.)
CThuc

Undated photo of Thục among Catholics in South Vietnam.
Now in his sixties, Thục immediately put himself to work in Huế. Among his priorities was the upgrading of the La Vang site, especially because it was scheduled to host the triennial pilgrimage festival only four months after his arrival to the archdiocese. Long story short, the site received a makeover of sorts then welcomed tens of thousands of pilgrims, including most bishops in South Vietnam, for nearly a week of prayer and celebration. Thục presided over the opening and closing masses, and led the dedication of the La Vang shrine, which Pope John XXIII had raised to the status of a minor basilica. It was probably the zenith of public glory for the Vietnamese prelate.
This festival was also a site of anticommunist nationalism: a complex topic deserving its own blog post at some other time. For now, it suffices here to say that the success of the festival gave credence to the proposition that the Archbishop was, as Phi-Vân Nguyen calls him in an article published two years ago, “the country’s leading anti-communist.” I’d offer the qualification that he was South Vietnam’s leading anticommunist Catholic (or, if you prefer, leading Catholic anticommunist). In any event, Thục must have pulled all kinds of strings–including his clout as older brother of the president and “first among equals” of all bishops–to get the site remodeled in record time, then to organize, I think, the largest festival up to that time.
In some respects, Thục was essentially an institutional builder. La Vang was only the most publicized and most ambitious among his projects, but there were more. He led the construction of a minor seminary and the remodeling of Saint Sulpice Seminary of Hue, the archdiocese’s offices, and the archbishop’s residence. In 1962, he unified five or six groups of the Lovers of the Cross–different sources give different numbers–under his jurisdiction into one institute called the Lovers of the Cross of Huế.  (Some members of this group became refugees in the U.S. after the Fall of Saigon. Click here for a recent post of mine about one of them.) They were impressive accomplishments, especially because his tenure in Huế was short: just a little over two years. Then the Second Vatican Council took him to Europe and permanent exile. Had it not been for the dramatic events of 1963, which were facilitated by Thục’s public and triumphant Catholic display of anniversaries, it is reasonable to think that he would have kept building a lot more, literally and figuratively, for the Archdiocese of Huế and the Vietnamese Church.
The problem, of course, is that Thục’s ambition was carried out in the most Buddhist region of Vietnam, which also happened to be the historical center of  Vietnamese Buddhist revival and Buddhist nationalism. He did not seem to demonstrate the kind of sensitivity towards Buddhist leaders that his younger brother Ngô Đình Cẩn, the unofficial governor of the region, had done. He addressed his announcements and speeches about La Vang to Catholics and non-Catholics alike–đồng bào lương giáo–as if thinking that non-Catholic Vietnamese would support the center because it was “national” and overlook the fact that it was “Marian.” What exactly led him into this line of thought should make for some interesting research or speculation.
Counter-factual history usually ends in futility, yet I can’t help wondering how things would turn out had the Vatican appointed Thục to Saigon instead of Huế. 
Click here for my post on the last years of Thục’s life.

Persto: This website is Vietnamese Novus Ordo, but they have some interesting material.
That funeral picture of Arcbishop Thuc is truly inspiring!  Thank you for sharing this!

Re: In Memory of Thuc by Gerard des Lauriers
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2024, 05:31:00 AM »
Now, I believe at the time of the picture, only Bishop Vezelis was a bishop.  He had been consecrated by bishops Carmona and Zamora, who in turn had been consecrated by Archbishop Thuc.  Then Bishop Vezelis consecrated Father Musey, with +Carmona and +Zamora as co-consecrators.  Father McKenna was then consecrated by fellow Dominican Bishop Guerard des Lauriers, who in turn had been consecrated by +Thuc.  Bishop McKenna then consecrated Father Vida Elmer.

So the priests here say that they only realized later that they had all become bishops, and that these meetings were not about consecrations.  Interestingly, these gatherings would have been an opportunity for them to get consecrated directly by Archbishop Thuc, but that wasn't their focus.  In one sense, I kindof wish they had just directly been consecrated by +Thuc there, because (since we had 5-6 priests present), that would have undermined one of Bishop Kelly's narratives, namely, that there weren't "competent" witnesses to the consecrations of Guerard des Lauriers, Carmona, and Zamora (saying that the Germans Hiller and Heller did not "count").

Of course, Bishop Kelly made that canonical requirement up out of thin air.  Not only did the Church accept 100% secret (aka unwitnessed) consecrations, but the Church in some cases ordered them to remain secret ... behind the Iron Curtain, and NOWHERE in Canon Law are witnesses required to attest "I witness that the matter and form were properly performed" but only that the consecration took place.  It's presumed that a properly-trained Bishop validly performed the consecration.  Archbishop Thuc held 3 Doctorates (when they actually mean something and you had to be very proficient in Latin to get these degrees), founded/started a seminary, and he performed 6 episcopal consecrations before Vatican II and was a co-consecrator of 9 more ... so he was thoroughly acquainted with the Rites.  Not to mention, when then-Father Sanborn went to visit Bishop de Castro Mayer, seeking a consecration, the Bishop told them to go to Bishop des Lauriers.  When Father Sanborn raised his concerns about the consecration, Bishop de Castro Mayer chuckled and said that if there's anyone competent to know whether a consecration was valid, it was "Guerard" (arguably the top theologian in the Church prior to Vatican II, having helped with the Dogma of the Assumption, served as personal confessor to Pius XII for some years, and latter having been the primary author of the Ottaviani Intervention).  Bishop Carmona was also a seminary professor before Vatican II (when again it meant something and you had to be well trained and very fluent in Latin).

So there's no positive doubt whatsoever regarding the validity of the consecrations of Bishops des Laurier, Carmona, or Zamora.  Nor, ironically, for the ones that +Thuc performed for the Palmar group (which was extremely public, witnessed by hundreds, and assisted by a seminary professor from Econe).  Now some of the other lines are sketchy.  If look at Boyle's list of Thuc consecrations/ordinations online, there are probably a dozen or more that are "disputed", where the consecrand claimed to have been consecrated by +Thuc but has no evidence, and in some cases +Thuc explicitly denied it.  For some reason, it became fashionable among certain Old Catholic groups to just claim consecration by +Thuc to legitimize them.

Also, there's no evidence whatsoever that +Thuc was "out of his mind" and "senile".  There's much eyewitness testimony that he was completely in possession of his faculties at least until the time he was kidnapped by the Conciliar Vietnamese.  Not to mention that the bar is very low for the mental capacity required to validly consecrate.  +Thuc merely needed to know what a consecration is and intend to do it.  While +Thuc made some errors in judgment, that doesn't come close to the standard for being too mentally impaired to consecrate validly.  And much of the allegations rest on the various consecrations that were falsely attributed to him.  As for the Palmar thing, it was a seminary professor from Econe who roped +Thuc into that, a seminary professor who was directed to +Thuc by +Lefebvre for the request, when the latter said he was too busy.  +Lefebvre had actually asked +Thuc to run the seminary at Econe, due to his experience having started them up from scratch, but +Thuc declined due to his age and health.  And if having believed in a false apparition makes one incapable of validly consecrating, then that could eliminate Bishop Williamson as well ... but of course we know that Bishop Williamson remains in full possession of his faculties, despite some (IMO) errors in judgement.

But the main lines in the US are undoubtedly valid.

+des Lauriers -> +McKenna -> +Sanborn (+Selway, etc.)
+des Lauriers -> +McKenna -> +Neville
+Carmona -> +Pivarunas (CMRI)
+Carmona -> +Pivarunas -> +Dolan (SGG bishops)
Thank you for sharing all of these facts.  I still learning have much to learn.