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Author Topic: “Experiment of Tradition”  (Read 2617 times)

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Offline Ekim

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“Experiment of Tradition”
« on: May 01, 2024, 08:33:30 AM »
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  • Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…

    I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed.  It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO.  There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith.  Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.

    What say you?

    Offline TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #1 on: May 01, 2024, 08:46:06 AM »
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  • Clearly individual Catholics are being blessed through Tradition.  My belief is that the Church will not return to Tradition until the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.  God wants the world to know the victory is His and is given solely to His Mother.  He wants it to be acknowledged as a purely supernatural event, not the work of human hands.


    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #2 on: May 01, 2024, 09:50:34 AM »
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  • Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…

    I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed.  It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO.  There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith.  Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.

    What say you?
    For clarification, that request was never granted. This fact eventually resulted in the episcopal consecrations. Also, Tradition is not limited to the SSPX. Unfortunately the newer generations born into the SSPX are not aware of it. Back in the 70's not every traditional minded clergy agreed with AB Lefrebvre's position and are still around independently.
    Regarding the scandals, trads leaving the faith, etc. it's men, not the institutions themselves, who make the choices. When Superiors take the wrong path,  institutions fall. Not the Catholic Church because Our Lord is the head.

    Offline Ekim

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #3 on: May 01, 2024, 10:07:47 AM »
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  • For clarification, that request was never granted. This fact eventually resulted in the episcopal consecrations. Also, Tradition is not limited to the SSPX. Unfortunately the newer generations born into the SSPX are not aware of it. Back in the 70's not every traditional minded clergy agreed with AB Lefrebvre's position and are still around independently.
    Regarding the scandals, trads leaving the faith, etc. it's men, not the institutions themselves, who make the choices. When Superiors take the wrong path,  institutions fall. Not the Catholic Church because Our Lord is the head.
    Nothing was mentioned regarding the SSPX, only that the request was made.  The question is independent of any Trad group or Society.  The official request was not granted, correct.  But Tradition continued as well as the graces that go with it.  If Tradition was truly Gods chosen path for all souls to get to heaven, why has it not flourished?  It does not seem to be much different than other Christian groups, in terms of statistical growth.  And the ratio of perverted priests and administrators to the number of faithful seems to be equivalent.

    Not what one would expect for Gods chosen religion.

    Offline Michelle

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #4 on: May 01, 2024, 10:18:57 AM »
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  • Nothing was mentioned regarding the SSPX, only that the request was made.  The question is independent of any Trad group or Society.  The official request was not granted, correct.  But Tradition continued as well as the graces that go with it.  If Tradition was truly Gods chosen path for all souls to get to heaven, why has it not flourished?  It does not seem to be much different than other Christian groups, in terms of statistical growth.  And the ratio of perverted priests and administrators to the number of faithful seems to be equivalent.

    Not what one would expect for Gods chosen religion.
    Luke 18:8
    I say to you, that He will quickly revenge them.  But yet the Son of Man, when He cometh, shall He find, think you, faith on the earth?

    Rome is in Apostasy,  along with the majority of baptized Catholics.  This was foretold.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #5 on: May 01, 2024, 11:00:59 AM »
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  • Nothing was mentioned regarding the SSPX, only that the request was made.  The question is independent of any Trad group or Society.  The official request was not granted, correct.  But Tradition continued as well as the graces that go with it.  If Tradition was truly Gods chosen path for all souls to get to heaven, why has it not flourished?  It does not seem to be much different than other Christian groups, in terms of statistical growth.  And the ratio of perverted priests and administrators to the number of faithful seems to be equivalent.

    Not what one would expect for Gods chosen religion.

    If you spend all day on news sites, you would be under the impression that "it's as bad as the N.O.!" But no, it's just a couple of cases. And at the very least, it's very easy to avoid such "traps" if you keep your eyes open.

    In the case of the SSPX, there is indeed a corruption at the top and the entire leadership -- but I've already said that the SSPX fell when they left Tradition to try to please the world and become the FSSP. So strictly speaking, they aren't Trad anymore. Not as an organization. Perhaps a few priests are still Trad in their thinking; certainly in their training.

    But the SSPX leaders no longer believe in the Traditional movement. They think it leads to becoming "Old Catholic" if pursued for too long. I'm not making this up. These were their own words. They think "Traditional Catholicism" has a firm expiration date which must not be exceeded; and that time has passed. So they now seek to be literally Indult instead. They seek permission (an Indult) from the Conciliar authorities in Rome. This is not something Traditional Catholics did -- or do.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #6 on: May 01, 2024, 11:05:04 AM »
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  • Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…

    I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed. 
    .

    Maybe in human terms. Yes, the number of people who want to be an actual, real Catholic also called a traditional Catholic, is very small. But this is not the fault of the Church, but of human wickedness that rejects the truth.


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    It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO.

    No, I don't agree with this at all. Cases like this are extremely rare in traditional Catholic circles, and extremely common in the Novus Ordo. I'm not sure what the relevance of this is, though, or why you mentioned it in this context. There are always going to be evil people in the Church.


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    There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions

    So what?


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    and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith.

    I kind of doubt this, but just because people reject Catholic faith and morals is not an argument against them.


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    Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.

    I can't believe you can say such a thing. The vast majority of Novus Ordo people don't believe in the Holy Eucharist, don't agree with what their "church" teaches them, accept abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, divorce (though they call it "annulments"), fornication, liberalism, and every other aberration.

    Traditional Catholics, on the other hand, accept the teachings of the Catholic Faith and to a large extent (the vast majority of them) follow them at the cost of great personal sacrifice.

    In any case, the real test for the "experiment of tradition" is whether it gets people to heaven, which is the purpose of the Church and of tradition. By this standard, the Faith as it was taught before Vatican 2 is 100% successful, and the faith of the Novus Ordo church is a 100% failure.

    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #7 on: May 01, 2024, 11:34:00 AM »
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  • I agree with Yeti. In other words, trad people condem themselves, by their own fault, not because of Tradition. The general apostasy was foretold.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #8 on: May 01, 2024, 11:58:27 AM »
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  • Yes, the fatal flaw in Ekim's argument is that he fails to distinguish between the INTRINSIC GOODNESS of a thing, and the FREE WILL that individual humans have.

    Was the Catholic Church not the True Church, because it had evil men inside it? The Church has always been the "net that encloses both good and bad fishes". Our Lord used this very analogy. He said the fisherman takes the net full of fishes to shore, and sorts the good from the bad (the Judgment). Similar is the parable of the Wheat and the cockle/tares/weeds.

    You're literally getting scandalized because of weeds in the field!

    Matthew chapter 13:
     26 And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle.  27 And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle  [Matthew 13:27]  28 And he said to them: An enemy hath done this.


    "Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle"

    That is you, Ekim.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #9 on: May 01, 2024, 12:07:35 PM »
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  • the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith.  Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.

    This is simply not true.

    The "majority" of children? seriously? If it's true that some families do a horrible job living the Traditional Catholic faith, and passing it on to their children (by WORD and EXAMPLE), but that isn't an indictment against the Faith! Quite the contrary.

    Firstly, let's not mince words. Traditional Catholicism is just Catholicism minus Modernism. So basically "Catholicism".

    This argument is as old as the hills. "If Catholicism is the true religion, why are there so many shi lousy Catholics? Why isn't every Catholic a saint?" It's not the FAITH that is to blame in those cases, but their rejection of the Faith, that makes them crappy. It's not that Catholicism is deficient or inadequate to make Saints -- but you have to DRINK from the stream to receive its benefits. Throwing someone into the stream doesn't force them to drink. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

    No religion, including the True Faith established by Christ Himself, takes a hold of people and violates their Free Will. It doesn't work that way.

    Lastly, the statistics in Tradition are *nowhere near* those of the Novus Ordo. Whether you look at Mass attendance, knowledge of the Faith, etc. *all things being equal* you have much better chances attending ANY Traditional Mass chapel over just about ANY Novus Ordo parish. The two aren't even in the same league.

    Long story short, the only indictments against Catholicism -- I mean Traditional Catholicism (same thing), are ANECDOTAL. Individuals using their Free Will. You show me a few families that did a horrible job raising their kids Catholic? I can show you some successful families that used Tradition with great success. So to resolve this stalemate, you have to look at Traditional Catholicism INTRINSICALLY. What is it, what does it teach, SHOULD it work, HAS it worked, etc.

    If every failure of Tradition to produce Catholic kids is because parents send kids to public school, let them have smartphones (and porn that comes with that package), lets them hang around non-Catholics, etc. -- how can you blame Tradition for that? Nothing in Tradition says "send your kids to public school", "let your kids be on Social Media", "let your kids keep bad company with non-Catholics". Again, quite the contrary!

    Tradition doesn't tell parents "You're sending your kids to a private (SSPX) school? You're good to go! Go, waste hours a day on the Internet, TV, video games, spend lots of ME time in your man cave. You don't need to teach your kids the Faith, or prepare them for battle with the godless World..." 
    ...but many do this anyhow.

    Those failures are because of the parents' choices -- not the rules, substance, essence, or culture of Catholic Tradition. So this isn't a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Anyone can call themselves Traditional, but if they reject everything Tradition teaches, are they really Traditional?

    I don't think it's "up for grabs" whether someone is a Scotsman, a Catholic, or a Traditional Catholic. If you reject the Fifth Commandment, you are a material heretic, so technically not Catholic. Joe Biden, supporting Abortion, is therefore a material heretic at least and can't be considered a Catholic in his support of abortion. He does that on his own volition and not AS a Catholic.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #10 on: May 01, 2024, 01:39:24 PM »
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  • Newsflash:  Many younger people today reject ALL religions and atheism/agnosticism is on the rise.  

    The problem isn’t Traditionalism but free will and original sin.  


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #11 on: May 02, 2024, 12:03:59 AM »
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  • This is simply not true.

    The "majority" of children? seriously? 

    If it's not a majority, then it isn't too far short of that ... just from my own anecdotal observations around various chapels I've attended.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #12 on: May 02, 2024, 12:05:40 AM »
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  • Newsflash:  Many younger people today reject ALL religions and atheism/agnosticism is on the rise. 

    The problem isn’t Traditionalism but free will and original sin. 

    Agreed.  If close to 50% of Traditional Catholic youth abandon the faith, the numbers are 90%+ among Novus Ordites, and the population at large.  I think it was Voris back in the day who put together a bunch of polls and concluded that 0% of current youth (I forget the age range) still have the Catholic faith.  Of course, that number is rounded down to get to zero, but it's <.5%.

    So, compared to what's going on among Novus Ordites, no, Tradition hasn't failed.  It's a miracle in today's society that even 50% of youth keep the faith.  We're not talking about social "Catholics" either, those who show up once in a while and sit in a pew at a Novus Ordo Memorial Meal, but those who still have the faith.  And the rate of issues with sodomy and pedophilia among Traditional Catholics are also much lower than among Novus Ordites.  I think this individual bashing Tradition is begging the question by assuming that the youths who show up at a World Youth Day are still actually Catholics just because they might use the word in speaking of themselves.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #13 on: May 02, 2024, 12:13:55 AM »
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  • There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions ...

    ... and if there are any among the Novus Ordites, the vast majority are just plain frauds, and some under diabolical influence.

    God has chosen to withhold such miracles/apparitions in these dark times, just as He's chosen to withhold the light of the Church from the world as well.  God wants souls to be sifted and to navigate these days by sheer faith, without any sensible consolation, as it were, to make an analogy with spiritual dyness.  If you had someone of the caliber of a Padre Pio endorsing Tradition, the Traditional Catholics would outnumber the Novus Ordites ... since he would draw them to the truth.  But God doesn't want that, people drawn by signs and miracles and wonders, this wicked generation that seeks a sign, as Our Lord said in His day.  It is in this way that faith is actually strengthened, when it isn't reinforced by outward signs or evidence or demonstrations.

    This individual mentioned by the OP has weak faith indeed.

    If someone can't tell the difference in faith, devotion, and piety at a Traditional Mass vs. what you see in the NO, then he's blind, and willfully blind.

    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: “Experiment of Tradition”
    « Reply #14 on: May 02, 2024, 05:30:46 AM »
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  • Clearly individual Catholics are being blessed through Tradition.  My belief is that the Church will not return to Tradition until the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.  God wants the world to know the victory is His and is given solely to His Mother.  He wants it to be acknowledged as a purely supernatural event, not the work of human hands.
    THIS ^^^
    "Jesus, Meek and Humble of Heart, make my heart like unto Thine!"

    http://whoshallfindavaliantwoman.blogspot.com/