Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Ekim on May 01, 2024, 08:33:30 AM
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Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…
I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed. It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO. There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith. Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.
What say you?
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Clearly individual Catholics are being blessed through Tradition. My belief is that the Church will not return to Tradition until the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. God wants the world to know the victory is His and is given solely to His Mother. He wants it to be acknowledged as a purely supernatural event, not the work of human hands.
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Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…
I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed. It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO. There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith. Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.
What say you?
For clarification, that request was never granted. This fact eventually resulted in the episcopal consecrations. Also, Tradition is not limited to the SSPX. Unfortunately the newer generations born into the SSPX are not aware of it. Back in the 70's not every traditional minded clergy agreed with AB Lefrebvre's position and are still around independently.
Regarding the scandals, trads leaving the faith, etc. it's men, not the institutions themselves, who make the choices. When Superiors take the wrong path, institutions fall. Not the Catholic Church because Our Lord is the head.
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For clarification, that request was never granted. This fact eventually resulted in the episcopal consecrations. Also, Tradition is not limited to the SSPX. Unfortunately the newer generations born into the SSPX are not aware of it. Back in the 70's not every traditional minded clergy agreed with AB Lefrebvre's position and are still around independently.
Regarding the scandals, trads leaving the faith, etc. it's men, not the institutions themselves, who make the choices. When Superiors take the wrong path, institutions fall. Not the Catholic Church because Our Lord is the head.
Nothing was mentioned regarding the SSPX, only that the request was made. The question is independent of any Trad group or Society. The official request was not granted, correct. But Tradition continued as well as the graces that go with it. If Tradition was truly Gods chosen path for all souls to get to heaven, why has it not flourished? It does not seem to be much different than other Christian groups, in terms of statistical growth. And the ratio of perverted priests and administrators to the number of faithful seems to be equivalent.
Not what one would expect for Gods chosen religion.
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Nothing was mentioned regarding the SSPX, only that the request was made. The question is independent of any Trad group or Society. The official request was not granted, correct. But Tradition continued as well as the graces that go with it. If Tradition was truly Gods chosen path for all souls to get to heaven, why has it not flourished? It does not seem to be much different than other Christian groups, in terms of statistical growth. And the ratio of perverted priests and administrators to the number of faithful seems to be equivalent.
Not what one would expect for Gods chosen religion.
Luke 18:8
I say to you, that He will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of Man, when He cometh, shall He find, think you, faith on the earth?
Rome is in Apostasy, along with the majority of baptized Catholics. This was foretold.
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Nothing was mentioned regarding the SSPX, only that the request was made. The question is independent of any Trad group or Society. The official request was not granted, correct. But Tradition continued as well as the graces that go with it. If Tradition was truly Gods chosen path for all souls to get to heaven, why has it not flourished? It does not seem to be much different than other Christian groups, in terms of statistical growth. And the ratio of perverted priests and administrators to the number of faithful seems to be equivalent.
Not what one would expect for Gods chosen religion.
If you spend all day on news sites, you would be under the impression that "it's as bad as the N.O.!" But no, it's just a couple of cases. And at the very least, it's very easy to avoid such "traps" if you keep your eyes open.
In the case of the SSPX, there is indeed a corruption at the top and the entire leadership -- but I've already said that the SSPX fell when they left Tradition to try to please the world and become the FSSP. So strictly speaking, they aren't Trad anymore. Not as an organization. Perhaps a few priests are still Trad in their thinking; certainly in their training.
But the SSPX leaders no longer believe in the Traditional movement. They think it leads to becoming "Old Catholic" if pursued for too long. I'm not making this up. These were their own words. They think "Traditional Catholicism" has a firm expiration date which must not be exceeded; and that time has passed. So they now seek to be literally Indult instead. They seek permission (an Indult) from the Conciliar authorities in Rome. This is not something Traditional Catholics did -- or do.
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Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…
I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed.
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Maybe in human terms. Yes, the number of people who want to be an actual, real Catholic also called a traditional Catholic, is very small. But this is not the fault of the Church, but of human wickedness that rejects the truth.
It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO.
No, I don't agree with this at all. Cases like this are extremely rare in traditional Catholic circles, and extremely common in the Novus Ordo. I'm not sure what the relevance of this is, though, or why you mentioned it in this context. There are always going to be evil people in the Church.
There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions
So what?
and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith.
I kind of doubt this, but just because people reject Catholic faith and morals is not an argument against them.
Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.
I can't believe you can say such a thing. The vast majority of Novus Ordo people don't believe in the Holy Eucharist, don't agree with what their "church" teaches them, accept abortion, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity, divorce (though they call it "annulments"), fornication, liberalism, and every other aberration.
Traditional Catholics, on the other hand, accept the teachings of the Catholic Faith and to a large extent (the vast majority of them) follow them at the cost of great personal sacrifice.
In any case, the real test for the "experiment of tradition" is whether it gets people to heaven, which is the purpose of the Church and of tradition. By this standard, the Faith as it was taught before Vatican 2 is 100% successful, and the faith of the Novus Ordo church is a 100% failure.
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I agree with Yeti. In other words, trad people condem themselves, by their own fault, not because of Tradition. The general apostasy was foretold.
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Yes, the fatal flaw in Ekim's argument is that he fails to distinguish between the INTRINSIC GOODNESS of a thing, and the FREE WILL that individual humans have.
Was the Catholic Church not the True Church, because it had evil men inside it? The Church has always been the "net that encloses both good and bad fishes". Our Lord used this very analogy. He said the fisherman takes the net full of fishes to shore, and sorts the good from the bad (the Judgment). Similar is the parable of the Wheat and the cockle/tares/weeds.
You're literally getting scandalized because of weeds in the field!
Matthew chapter 13:
26 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=26-#x)And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=27-#x)And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle [Matthew 13:27] (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=27#) 28 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=28-#x)And he said to them: An enemy hath done this.
"Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle"
That is you, Ekim.
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the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith. Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.
This is simply not true.
The "majority" of children? seriously? If it's true that some families do a horrible job living the Traditional Catholic faith, and passing it on to their children (by WORD and EXAMPLE), but that isn't an indictment against the Faith! Quite the contrary.
Firstly, let's not mince words. Traditional Catholicism is just Catholicism minus Modernism. So basically "Catholicism".
This argument is as old as the hills. "If Catholicism is the true religion, why are there so many shi lousy Catholics? Why isn't every Catholic a saint?" It's not the FAITH that is to blame in those cases, but their rejection of the Faith, that makes them crappy. It's not that Catholicism is deficient or inadequate to make Saints -- but you have to DRINK from the stream to receive its benefits. Throwing someone into the stream doesn't force them to drink. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
No religion, including the True Faith established by Christ Himself, takes a hold of people and violates their Free Will. It doesn't work that way.
Lastly, the statistics in Tradition are *nowhere near* those of the Novus Ordo. Whether you look at Mass attendance, knowledge of the Faith, etc. *all things being equal* you have much better chances attending ANY Traditional Mass chapel over just about ANY Novus Ordo parish. The two aren't even in the same league.
Long story short, the only indictments against Catholicism -- I mean Traditional Catholicism (same thing), are ANECDOTAL. Individuals using their Free Will. You show me a few families that did a horrible job raising their kids Catholic? I can show you some successful families that used Tradition with great success. So to resolve this stalemate, you have to look at Traditional Catholicism INTRINSICALLY. What is it, what does it teach, SHOULD it work, HAS it worked, etc.
If every failure of Tradition to produce Catholic kids is because parents send kids to public school, let them have smartphones (and porn that comes with that package), lets them hang around non-Catholics, etc. -- how can you blame Tradition for that? Nothing in Tradition says "send your kids to public school", "let your kids be on Social Media", "let your kids keep bad company with non-Catholics". Again, quite the contrary!
Tradition doesn't tell parents "You're sending your kids to a private (SSPX) school? You're good to go! Go, waste hours a day on the Internet, TV, video games, spend lots of ME time in your man cave. You don't need to teach your kids the Faith, or prepare them for battle with the godless World..."
...but many do this anyhow.
Those failures are because of the parents' choices -- not the rules, substance, essence, or culture of Catholic Tradition. So this isn't a "no true Scotsman" fallacy. Anyone can call themselves Traditional, but if they reject everything Tradition teaches, are they really Traditional?
I don't think it's "up for grabs" whether someone is a Scotsman, a Catholic, or a Traditional Catholic. If you reject the Fifth Commandment, you are a material heretic, so technically not Catholic. Joe Biden, supporting Abortion, is therefore a material heretic at least and can't be considered a Catholic in his support of abortion. He does that on his own volition and not AS a Catholic.
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Newsflash: Many younger people today reject ALL religions and atheism/agnosticism is on the rise.
The problem isn’t Traditionalism but free will and original sin.
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This is simply not true.
The "majority" of children? seriously?
If it's not a majority, then it isn't too far short of that ... just from my own anecdotal observations around various chapels I've attended.
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Newsflash: Many younger people today reject ALL religions and atheism/agnosticism is on the rise.
The problem isn’t Traditionalism but free will and original sin.
Agreed. If close to 50% of Traditional Catholic youth abandon the faith, the numbers are 90%+ among Novus Ordites, and the population at large. I think it was Voris back in the day who put together a bunch of polls and concluded that 0% of current youth (I forget the age range) still have the Catholic faith. Of course, that number is rounded down to get to zero, but it's <.5%.
So, compared to what's going on among Novus Ordites, no, Tradition hasn't failed. It's a miracle in today's society that even 50% of youth keep the faith. We're not talking about social "Catholics" either, those who show up once in a while and sit in a pew at a Novus Ordo Memorial Meal, but those who still have the faith. And the rate of issues with sodomy and pedophilia among Traditional Catholics are also much lower than among Novus Ordites. I think this individual bashing Tradition is begging the question by assuming that the youths who show up at a World Youth Day are still actually Catholics just because they might use the word in speaking of themselves.
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There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions ...
... and if there are any among the Novus Ordites, the vast majority are just plain frauds, and some under diabolical influence.
God has chosen to withhold such miracles/apparitions in these dark times, just as He's chosen to withhold the light of the Church from the world as well. God wants souls to be sifted and to navigate these days by sheer faith, without any sensible consolation, as it were, to make an analogy with spiritual dyness. If you had someone of the caliber of a Padre Pio endorsing Tradition, the Traditional Catholics would outnumber the Novus Ordites ... since he would draw them to the truth. But God doesn't want that, people drawn by signs and miracles and wonders, this wicked generation that seeks a sign, as Our Lord said in His day. It is in this way that faith is actually strengthened, when it isn't reinforced by outward signs or evidence or demonstrations.
This individual mentioned by the OP has weak faith indeed.
If someone can't tell the difference in faith, devotion, and piety at a Traditional Mass vs. what you see in the NO, then he's blind, and willfully blind.
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Clearly individual Catholics are being blessed through Tradition. My belief is that the Church will not return to Tradition until the Triumph of the Immaculate Heart. God wants the world to know the victory is His and is given solely to His Mother. He wants it to be acknowledged as a purely supernatural event, not the work of human hands.
THIS ^^^
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If you spend all day on news sites, you would be under the impression that "it's as bad as the N.O.!" But no, it's just a couple of cases. And at the very least, it's very easy to avoid such "traps" if you keep your eyes open.
In the case of the SSPX, there is indeed a corruption at the top and the entire leadership -- but I've already said that the SSPX fell when they left Tradition to try to please the world and become the FSSP. So strictly speaking, they aren't Trad anymore. Not as an organization. Perhaps a few priests are still Trad in their thinking; certainly in their training.
But the SSPX leaders no longer believe in the Traditional movement. They think it leads to becoming "Old Catholic" if pursued for too long. I'm not making this up. These were their own words. They think "Traditional Catholicism" has a firm expiration date which must not be exceeded; and that time has passed. So they now seek to be literally Indult instead. They seek permission (an Indult) from the Conciliar authorities in Rome. This is not something Traditional Catholics did -- or do.
This question was not focused on the SSPX specifically, only that their founder posed the “Experiment of Tradition”. With that said, the true Tradition that you imply does not seem to be flourishing…even after nearly 12 years since the Resistance and decades of other Traditional groups. It would seem that Gods grace is not overflowing as one would expect.
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Yes, the fatal flaw in Ekim's argument is that he fails to distinguish between the INTRINSIC GOODNESS of a thing, and the FREE WILL that individual humans have.
Was the Catholic Church not the True Church, because it had evil men inside it? The Church has always been the "net that encloses both good and bad fishes". Our Lord used this very analogy. He said the fisherman takes the net full of fishes to shore, and sorts the good from the bad (the Judgment). Similar is the parable of the Wheat and the cockle/tares/weeds.
You're literally getting scandalized because of weeds in the field!
Matthew chapter 13:
26 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=26-#x)And when the blade was sprung up, and had brought forth fruit, then appeared also the cockle. 27 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=27-#x)And the servants of the goodman of the house coming said to him: Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle [Matthew 13:27] (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=27#) 28 (https://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=13&l=28-#x)And he said to them: An enemy hath done this.
"Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it cockle"
That is you, Ekim.
No. The question never denied the spiritual / Theological / truth of the Holy Catholic Faith, only the objective appearance of Tradition. It is not bursting at the seems and growing exponentially, many, many children who are raised as Traditional Catholics do NOT keep the Traditional Catholic faith and do not return to the chapel’s they grew up in. It is not blessed with a “St. Padre Pio’s” or “St. Bernadette Souberious” or a miraculous spring as a sign from heaven that it is truly blessed by God. Objectively Tradition does not APPEAR any better or blessed than other religions.
Growing up in Tradition for the past 30+ years it is obvious that THOUSANDS of children who were raised in Traditional Catholic homes / chapel’s do not return. God has not blessed Traditional Catholics with mystics or miracles as a sign of His benevolence, which would be a beacon to lost souls in this wicked world. Chapels are not growing exponentially. It appears outwardly that Tradition is not blessed any greater than other religions.
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Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…
I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed. It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO. There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith. Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.
What say you?
What???
Are you kidding???
You who have been around in Tradition for 30 years can say this???
"The experiment of Tradition" was an extraordinary success. I became traditional in 1980 at the age of 14, and Tradition back then, and for many years after, was a very lonely life for a young man, or for older parents, all of whom found themselves very isolated and with very few friends indeed, not to mention limited availability of the Mass and sacraments, ceremonies in private homes, the proverbial garages, rented venues... perhaps you arrived on the scene just as things had improved somewhat.
Archbishop Lefebvre asked of Paul VI to be allowed to conduct this experiment, hoping that Rome would see the good fruits and return to Tradition, seeing how the Council and the reforms had produced only bad fruits. This was refused him, and so the experiment took place outside of the "Official Church" and without Rome's approval. Those of us who lived through this period would never have believed it possible that the Traditional movement could enjoy such extraordinary growth and vitality in so few years. Yes, indeed, it was a great success and we saw all the wonderful fruits in large, holy families, living the Faith and the life of grace in this wicked world, conversions, religious vocations, the multiplication of churches and religious institutions, Catholic printing houses, the ready availability once again of traditional books, images and devotional items. The revival was truly amazing. How blessed we have been, and how different it might have been!
And this is the great evil of the neo-SSPX vis-a-vis modernist Rome. They pretended to be only doing what the Archbishop was doing. Yet this experiment he requested had already taken place without Rome's approval. Rome saw the unequivocal and undeniable good fruits in abundance, and still they continued relentlessly with their reforming madness and their crusade to destroy Tradition.
"Tradition is not blessed any greater than other religions". It is the NO that should be your comparison, not "other religions", and it is not just numbers we are talking about, but the spiritual manifestations of the Faith - not the fantastic that you seem to be seeking, miracles and mystical phenomena and the like, but keeping and living the Faith in a world that makes it nigh impossible: Catholic families, religious vocations, churches, seminaries, religious houses. What is the wonder if other false religions prosper that pander to the flesh and man's fallen nature in a world where even "Catholic" authority is used to promote such a false notion of religion?
The survival and expansion of Catholic Tradition in this world without the help of Catholic authority is a miracle in itself. All praise and thanks to God for His mercies!
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Please see recent reply to Matthew. Growing up in Tradition for the past 30+ years it is obvious that THOUSANDS of children who were raised in Traditional Catholic homes / chapel’s do not return. God has not blessed Traditional Catholics with mystics or miracles as a sign of His benevolence, which would be a beacon to lost souls in this wicked world. Chapels are not growing exponentially. It appears outwardly that Tradition is not blessed any greater than other religions.
The period of graces given to the "Traditional Movement" may have come to an end and therefore is in eclipse. Catholic Tradition will always bestow more blessings than other religions. If you believe otherwise, then you are a ecuмenist.
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No. The question never denied the spiritual / Theological / truth of the Holy Catholic Faith, only the objective appearance of Tradition. It is not bursting at the seems and growing exponentially, many, many children who are raised as Traditional Catholics do NOT keep the Traditional Catholic faith and do not return to the chapel’s they grew up in. It is not blessed with a “St. Padre Pio’s” or “St. Bernadette Souberious” or a miraculous spring as a sign from heaven that it is truly blessed by God. Objectively Tradition does not APPEAR any better or blessed than other religions.
The religion of Padre Pio and Saint Bernadette is the Tradional Catholic faith and practice. All the saints and the miracles in the history of the Church are from the "experiment of Tradition."
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What???
Are you kidding???
You who have been around in Tradition for 30 years can say this???
"The experiment of Tradition" was an extraordinary success. I became traditional in 1980 at the age of 14, and Tradition back then, and for many years after, was a very lonely life for a young man, or for older parents, all of whom found themselves very isolated and with very few friends indeed, not to mention limited availability of the Mass and sacraments, ceremonies in private homes, the proverbial garages, rented venues... perhaps you arrived on the scene just as things had improved somewhat.
Archbishop Lefebvre asked of Paul VI to be allowed to conduct this experiment, hoping that Rome would see the good fruits and return to Tradition, seeing how the Council and the reforms had produced only bad fruits. This was refused him, and so the experiment took place outside of the "Official Church" and without Rome's approval. Those of us who lived through this period would never have believed it possible that the Traditional movement could enjoy such extraordinary growth and vitality in so few years. Yes, indeed, it was a great success and we saw all the wonderful fruits in large, holy families, living the Faith and the life of grace in this wicked world, conversions, religious vocations, the multiplication of churches and religious institutions, Catholic printing houses, the ready availability once again of traditional books, images and devotional items. The revival was truly amazing. How blessed we have been, and how different it might have been!
And this is the great evil of the neo-SSPX vis-a-vis modernist Rome. They pretended to be only doing what the Archbishop was doing. Yet this experiment he requested had already taken place without Rome's approval. Rome saw the unequivocal and undeniable good fruits in abundance, and still they continued relentlessly with their reforming madness and their crusade to destroy Tradition.
"Tradition is not blessed any greater than other religions". It is the NO that should be your comparison, not "other religions", and it is not just numbers we are talking about, but the spiritual manifestations of the Faith - not the fantastic that you seem to be seeking, miracles and mystical phenomena and the like, but keeping and living the Faith in a world that makes it nigh impossible: Catholic families, religious vocations, churches, seminaries, religious houses. What is the wonder if other false religions prosper that pander to the flesh and man's fallen nature in a world where even "Catholic" authority is used to promote such a false notion of religion?
The survival and expansion of Catholic Tradition in this world without the help of Catholic authority is a miracle in itself. All praise and thanks to God for His mercies!
As one looks through rose colored glasses.
The numbers of children raised in Tradition..,who stay dedicated to the Traditional faith are few.
I would not consider the meager growth over 62 years as “flourishing” but mearly getting-by.
The many “Traditional” priests who have stayed TRUE to Tradition as exemplified by H.E. Archbishop Lefebvre are few.
if you are talking about folks who like the smells and bells of Traditional Catholicism, Tradcuмinist’s, and don’t mind compromising Tradition, like the Neo-SSPX and off-shoot indult organizations, than yes your observations are true. However, for those who hold fast to Tradition, uncompromised, not so much.
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Ekim, get to the point.
You're going back to the Novus Ordo? Becoming protestant? Dogmatic Home-aloner (person who hates Novus Ordo but also Traditional Movement)? Giving up hope? Giving up the Faith? You seem to be in the thralls of some kind of blackpilled despair.
Or are you on Team Bishop Fellay? He also gave up on Tradition, in a different way. His view (held by 20% of SSPX priests, and 100% of the SSPX leadership) is as follows: Tradition hasn't de-facto solved the Crisis, so I'm giving up on it. It had its chance, it had a good run, but it hasn't worked. So let's build bigger buildings, make compromises and reach out to those of the Conciliar religion, so as to "pack the place" with thousands of Faithful and build up numerical superiority and "success".
If you've given up on Traditional Catholicism, I would ask you to please keep your black pills and despair to yourself. No one here needs a Denethor to shout his despair to all the brave soldiers manning the walls. "My line is ended!"
Because if you continue to shout your "Abandon your posts! Flee! Flee for your lives!" to demoralize and discourage the Trads on this Trad forum, I will have no choice but to play the role of Gandalf the White to your Denethor. i.e., Knock you out with my staff (ban you) and gainsay your words of despair with "Prepare for battle!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=267nNfzyL5E
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Traditional Catholicism is just "Catholicism" but clarified for a modern audience, to qualify and distinguish it from the Conciliar religion.
If Catholicism before 1960 didn't seize each person's Free Will and force them to follow Christ -- what makes you think Traditional Catholicism (basically, "Catholicism after 1960") would be any different?
Of course some are going to squander the graces in Traditional Catholicism. It's no different from how the Catholic Church ALWAYS WAS -- with saints, sinners, and in-between, and men with free will. Good and bad priests, good and bad bishops, and good and bad laymen.
BUT THE GRACES ARE THERE. And ONLY THERE. That is the point, and the reason for defending the Faith -- the Traditional Catholic Faith -- to the death.
It's the best place, the only place, to be. The only place where one has EVEN A CHANCE of keeping the Faith and saving his soul. You think you can do better elsewhere?
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With that said, the true Tradition that you imply does not seem to be flourishing
The fact that Tradition is still surviving is a miracle. In the beginning, every major obstacle has been thrown in Tradition's way (no support from new-rome, branded "extremists" by the media, zero money except from the laity, no hierarchy, no jurisdiction, no actual churches, no seminaries, no organization, etc). It's all been a grass-roots effort to build Tradition -- in as little as 40 years -- this in and of itself is a MAJOR miracle.
In regards to "cradle-Trads" leaving the Faith, yes, it's happened in large numbers. But at least at our chapel, these have been replaced by atheists/protestants converting in large numbers. Each one of these people who converts from the "normal world" to come to our poor, little chapel is an absolute miraculous event.
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As one looks through rose colored glasses.
The numbers of children raised in Tradition..,who stay dedicated to the Traditional faith are few.
I would not consider the meager growth over 62 years as “flourishing” but mearly getting-by.
The many “Traditional” priests who have stayed TRUE to Tradition as exemplified by H.E. Archbishop Lefebvre are few.
if you are talking about folks who like the smells and bells of Traditional Catholicism, Tradcuмinist’s, and don’t mind compromising Tradition, like the Neo-SSPX and off-shoot indult organizations, than yes your observations are true. However, for those who hold fast to Tradition, uncompromised, not so much.
Dear Ekim, I think, rather, you are getting around with your max-black sunnies!
I understand your discouragement, with Bishop Fellay and the neo-SSPX derailing the fight for the Faith, and now all the division in Tradition at large and in the Resistance... yes, how much more glorious it might have been. Undoubtedly, the heydays are over, but heydays they were!
This decline does not make the "experiment of Tradition" a failure. Don't confuse the "experiment of Tradition" with the betrayal of Tradition! Our current predicament demonstrates the cunning of the enemy we are up against, which is using the "masterstroke of obedience" all over again in an attempt to destroy what has been gained.
God knows what is best for our salvation. Would we have kept the Faith ourselves if God had not woken us up with this new and unexpected fight? Perhaps we would have become too comfortable and started sliding with the world...
Certainly, we have all been shocked by just how few priests and faithful really understood the fight for the Faith. Yet is spite of this, there are many outside of the "faithful few" who are profiting from the fruits of the fight of the last half century to live the traditional faith.
Anyway, take off those dark glasses or you won't be able to see in the years ahead. I think it is unrealistic now to expect anything other than a downward spiral into the purifying chastisement foretold by Our Lady which, after the consecration of Russia, will bring us to that wonderful but all too brief reign of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. May we all live to see it!
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Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate…
I recently engaged in a conversation with a fellow Traditional Catholic who commented that objectively AB Lefebvre’s request to Paul VI to allow the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed. It appears as if Tradition has not flourished much if any, and is plagued with ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity and pedophilia much like the NO. There are no Traditional Catholics known for heavenly apparitions and the majority of children raised in Traditional Catholic homes do not retain the faith. Hence, the “Experiment of Tradition” has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo.
What say you?
If I see hot pants, micro-skirts, and bare-midriffs at our parish and some teeny preggers, I'll give your premise some thought.
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If I see hot pants, micro-skirts, and bare-midriffs at our parish and some teeny preggers, I'll give your premise some thought.
Yes, a simple observation that demonstrates the world of difference between Tradition and the New Church, and hence the folly of Ekim's statement that "the experiment of Tradition has failed, with very little statistical difference than the Novus Ordo".
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But at least at our chapel, these have been replaced by atheists/protestants converting in large numbers.
Just curious who runs the chapel, how many are coming in and for what reason? I have a friend who lives in the Seattle area and has been going to the SSPX chapel there for years. They are down to one Mass on Sunday with dwindling numbers. The large families either went sede, went with Fr. Pfeiffer, or just moved out of Seattle. The Fraternity purchased land a few years ago pretty much just down the road and they now have four services on Sunday.
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This question was not focused on the SSPX specifically, only that their founder posed the “Experiment of Tradition”. With that said, the true Tradition that you imply does not seem to be flourishing…even after nearly 12 years since the Resistance and decades of other Traditional groups. It would seem that Gods grace is not overflowing as one would expect.
Which country are you referring to? And can you please cite a source for your statistics? A link will do.
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The opening to this question was “Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate”.
I was hoping someone would have some insight as to why “Traditional Catholicism” or just “Catholicism” as Matthew rightly stated, is not flourishing as a beacon in this corrupt society as it seemed to in the past dark ages, occasionally punctuated by heaven with mystics, miracle workers, Saints, and miraculous phenomenon for all the world to see.
I know that no one can truly answer this question, for only God knows.
The answers I received were interesting. I was surprised that no one simply replied that such things are in the hands of our good Lord. All we can do is cling to the truth; and as Padre Pio says “Pray, Hope, and Don’t Worry”.
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Dear Ekim, I think, rather, you are getting around with your max-black sunnies!
I understand your discouragement, with Bishop Fellay and the neo-SSPX derailing the fight for the Faith, and now all the division in Tradition at large and in the Resistance... yes, how much more glorious it might have been. Undoubtedly, the heydays are over, but heydays they were!
This decline does not make the "experiment of Tradition" a failure. Don't confuse the "experiment of Tradition" with the betrayal of Tradition! Our current predicament demonstrates the cunning of the enemy we are up against, which is using the "masterstroke of obedience" all over again in an attempt to destroy what has been gained.
God knows what is best for our salvation. Would we have kept the Faith ourselves if God had not woken us up with this new and unexpected fight? Perhaps we would have become too comfortable and started sliding with the world...
Certainly, we have all been shocked by just how few priests and faithful really understood the fight for the Faith. Yet is spite of this, there are many outside of the "faithful few" who are profiting from the fruits of the fight of the last half century to live the traditional faith.
Anyway, take off those dark glasses or you won't be able to see in the years ahead. I think it is unrealistic now to expect anything other than a downward spiral into the purifying chastisement foretold by Our Lady which, after the consecration of Russia, will bring us to that wonderful but all too brief reign of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. May we all live to see it!
Thank you for your kind reply. No dark glasses here. You and I have the same vision. Traditional clergy are plagued with the same dastardly sins as the NO and even in places where chapels see growth due to closing of NO Latin Masses, the new parishioners trend towards liberalism often taking the congregation with them as opposed to them becoming more conservative. You are correct , it is a miracle in this crazy world that Tradition still exists. Let us continue to cling to it, uncompromisingly, with all our strength. All in Gods time. Let us Pray, Hope, and Don’t Worry!
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I like a chapel that stays the same. God stays the same. There has to be a secure anchor in this world of constant change. Too many mistake novelty for progress. Just because it’s new does not mean it’s improved.
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The opening to this question was “Pardon me while I play Devils Advocate”.
I was hoping someone would have some insight as to why “Traditional Catholicism” or just “Catholicism” as Matthew rightly stated, is not flourishing as a beacon in this corrupt society as it seemed to in the past dark ages, occasionally punctuated by heaven with mystics, miracle workers, Saints, and miraculous phenomenon for all the world to see.
I know that no one can truly answer this question, for only God knows.
The answers I received were interesting. I was surprised that no one simply replied that such things are in the hands of our good Lord. All we can do is cling to the truth; and as Padre Pio says “Pray, Hope, and Don’t Worry”.
My husband and I think the Church is going through the same thing that Christ did in His last hours. At V2 the Church appeared to die, and now the body (Rome) and the Soul (Tradition) have been split. Everything was quiet and confused while Christ was in the tomb. We now are just awaiting a beautiful Resurrection. Pray, Hope, and Don't Worry is sound advice for our times.