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Author Topic: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition  (Read 22442 times)

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Offline Johannes

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Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
« on: November 18, 2024, 10:09:02 AM »
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  • [DISCLAIMER: I am not trying to induce doubt into anyone's mind - if you are someone who is easily affected by those things - please don't read - for me this is a purely objective question].

    During these trying times, without recourse to the Holy Office, what principles do you use to determine how/why to place your trust in a particular priest/bishop to determine the validity of previously conferred Sacraments?

    This of course, not only pertains to Baptism/Confirmation/Marriages for laypeople but, also Baptism/Confirmation for priests not born/raised in Tradition.

    For those not coming from the Novus Ordo or other sects and have never thought about it, I suppose this would only "affect" you if your priest had come from there because it could call into question his baptismal character thereby rendering his priesthood null.

    Some factors to consider:

    "If, however, after diligent inquiry reasonable doubt remains concerning the validity of their former Baptism, they are now to be baptized conditionally."

    Taken from: Reception of Converts and Profession of Faith

    See also Denzinger #1848 Pope Leo XIII the Reception of Converted Heretics [From the decree of the Holy Office, Nov. 20,1878]

    Denzinger - Sources of Catholic Dogma.pdf : Denzinger - Sources of Catholic Dogma.pdf


    See how Tucho [Fernandaz] mocks:

    "In their January 2022 Plenary Assembly, the Cardinal and Bishop Members of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith expressed concern about the increasing number of situations in which Sacraments were being celebrated invalidly. The grave modifications that were made to the matter or form of the Sacraments, which nullified those celebrations, led to the need to track down those who were involved and repeat the Rite of Baptism or Confirmation, and a significant number of the faithful rightly expressed their distress."

    Taken from:
    Note Gestis Verbisque on the Validity of the Sacraments (2 February 2024)

    So here Tucho, is telling everyone, it is much worse than you think (the number of cases of invalidity). He mocks Catholics by summing up that "you know we shouldn't mess with the sacraments." Of course, these problems stem from messing with the sacred rites and free-wheeling spirit of VII. IMO, In times past, anything that had such suspicion attached to it would ispo facto require conditional administration. But in these times, one places there trust in a particular priest, bishop, group, etc. What criteria do you use to place that trust? 

    If you believe in explicit BOD, then laypeople would be "good" on the baptism side of things.

    But this would not be the case with priests who come from outside Tradition and have doubtful baptism, because if they were never baptized, then they can't be valid priests no matter how much desire they have for the priesthood. If they aren't priests (or their priesthood is doubtful because of their doubtful baptism) then all the sacraments they confect are doubtful too. 

    Perhaps you & your priest were raised in Tradition and have received all the traditional Sacraments without any doubt, then you are truly blessed and should give thanks to God many times a day for such a wonderful grace. God is good - always.

    Praise be Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!




    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #1 on: November 18, 2024, 12:32:06 PM »
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  • 1.  Multiple, multiple Trad clerics...from all different decades (70s, 80s, 90s and present)...from all different groups (i.e. sspx, Sedevacantist, independent)...have ALL concluded that the new rites of ordination and consecration all have 'positive' doubts.

    2.  Cardinals Ottaviani/Bacci both concluded that one can 'positively' doubt the new mass' consecration....even IF the priest is valid.  Thus, the new mass is doubly doubtful if said by a new rite priest.


    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #2 on: November 18, 2024, 01:14:22 PM »
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  • Right on both counts - no dispute here.

    What am I asking more specifically is:

    What criteria do you use to put your trust in Trad clerics on the subject of doubtful baptisms i.e., their method of how they come to determine if someone's baptism is valid or not - this would include men who come to their seminaries from the Novus Ordo or other Protestant sects, and either being conditionally baptized or not. It seems to me that because we do not have recourse to the Holy Office, so it is every man for himself, based on his preference, gut-feeling, powers of deduction, etc. So, we choose to put our trust in different groups/people - what is the criteria you use to do that?

    An additional factor to consider:

    Say your priest was a Novus Ordo convert, or Protestant convert who was baptized in that sect but never received conditional baptism. Without having recourse to decisions from Rome, how can we be morally certain they are even baptized due to all of the fallout from the Novus Ordo fiddling with the rite of baptism and also from the general principle that many Protestant converts were conditionally baptized when entered the Church based on "reasonable doubt". No baptism = no priests. To approach doubtful Sacraments is grave matter and forbidden.

    So maybe someone would answer, "I choose to align myself with the way bishop so-and-so does things because I think he is smart"., Or "I follow the principles of our organization, etc. Or maybe people never think about it and just go the Sacraments assuming their priest is validly baptized. But is such an assumption prudent during this time? That is more what I am driving at. What are your thoughts?

    Maybe, like I said above - your priest is undoubtably baptized/raised in Tradition and so were you. That is a HUGE grace and then the question probably never came up to your mind.
    In general there are no conditional baptisms for converts from the Novus Ordo, but in our case, the priest did perform the exorcisms that are no longer done

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #3 on: November 18, 2024, 01:15:21 PM »
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  • If they aren't priests (or their priesthood is doubtful because of their doubtful baptism) then all the sacraments they confect are doubtful too.

    Not quite.  Valid Holy Orders is not required to validly administer the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #4 on: November 18, 2024, 01:32:35 PM »
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  • But, yes, I would recommend conditional Baptism / Confirmation and then Ordination for any priest baptized in the Novus Ordo, and just Baptism / Confirmation for anyone else baptized in the NO.  I've stated that here.

    Some Trad groups do an "investigation" IF you were baptized between certain years (I actually believe they have it flipped in terms of the years they focus on), whereas others assume validity.

    I've never understood this ... at all.  They're so worried about some kind of "sacrilege" against the Sacrament, but that's the entire point of CONDITIONAL Sacraments, where it it was already validly administered, it's not done again.  So there's absolutely NO danger of sacrilege when it's administered conditonally.

    Now, you can't just willy-nilly rebaptized everybody based on "what if my priest got the words wrong?" ... since that would just make the Church ridiculous (subjecting everyone to the same standards of proof that Bishop Kelly made up about the +Thuch bishops) and making a mockery of the Church.

    But due to the prevailing attitude in the NO where "ad libbing" stuff is OK (this is a widespread mentality among them that I've run into on a regular basis), I would consider it perfectly reasonable to conditionally baptize everyone baptized in the NO.  In addition, I would supplement the conditional Baptism with the additional Traditional Rites, just as you would if someone received emergency Baptism without the solemnity.

    I've never understood this IMO absurdly-over-cautious attitude about some kind of possible sacrilege against the Sacrament ... which can't happen if you use the conditional form.  I believe that it's perfectly reasonable ... and highly recommended to engage in this practice, unless you actually have positive indicators that the NO one was valid.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #5 on: November 18, 2024, 02:44:43 PM »
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  • This ^^ is the conclusion that I have reached as well.

    I know that the SSPX doesn't do conditional baptisms in every case - but rather do their own investigation case-by-case. Where one could argue that this might not be the most imprudent course of action concerning laypeople - I think it can/could have disastrous consequences for priests coming from the N.O. So, IMO a lot of people waste ink arguing about the validly of the new rites of ordination, when at least since the 1970s anyone who is even baptized in the N.O. should be conditionally baptized and especially candidates for the traditional priesthood who were not born/raised in tradition - so as to ensure the validly of their traditional priesthood. My old SSPX priest was raised in N.O. (I don't know if he was conditionally baptized - never thought to ask). Also, I know that the SSPX priest running the Immaculata now is a Protestant convert - was he conditionally baptized? Father Albert the Dominican, was I know because he stated so online, was Bishop Williamson - anyone know? I am not trying to open a can of worms, but the Modernists are really to blame as they have sown doubt, and confusion into everything.

    So, I am wondering what others think and what criteria they use to determine who to trust with making these "investigations" and determinations especially concerning seminarians for the priesthood.

    The problem is that the Church *initially, always* presumes validity. As such, to indiscriminately administer the sacrament again, even conditionally *can* be a sacrilege. We have no official Church authority to tell us all NO sacraments are doubtful or invalid, hence, why the SSPX investigates as far as possible to determine invalidity or doubtful, each case individually.

    Trent's Catechism....

    In Conditional Baptism The Sacrament Is Not Repeated

    Nor let anyone suppose that it is repeated by the Church when she baptises anyone whose previous Baptism was
    doubtful, making use of this formula: If thou art baptised, I baptise thee not again but if thou art not yet
    baptised, I baptise thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. In such cases Baptism
    is not to be considered as impiously repeated, but as holily, yet conditionally, administered.

    In this connection, however, there are some matters, in which, to the very great injury of the Sacrament, abuses
    are of almost daily occurrence, and which therefore demand the diligent attention of pastors. For there are not
    wanting those who think that no sin is committed if they indiscriminately administer conditional Baptism. Hence if an infant be brought to them, they think that no inquiry need be made as to whether it was previously baptised, but proceed immediately to baptise the child. Nay more, although they be well aware that the Sacrament was administered at home, they do not hesitate to repeat its administration in the Church conditionally, making use of the solemn ceremonies of the Church.

    This certainly they cannot do without sacrilege and without incurring what theologians call an irregularity.
    According to the authority of Pope Alexander the conditional form of Baptism is to be used only when after due
    inquiry doubts are entertained as to the validity of the previous Baptism. In no other case is it ever lawful to
    administer Baptism a second time, even conditionally.


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #6 on: November 18, 2024, 02:45:57 PM »
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  • I think they just need to stop wasting time on "investigations".  As we put it in the busines world, there's very little "Return on Investment" for making the effort, and unless you have a videotape (which establishes only that there's NO postiive doubt), it's nearly impossible to make such an investigation and, quite frankly, isn't worth the effort.  So, what?, you'd go to the trouble of asking questions sabout whether Father Bob or Father Bill was more on the "conservative" side or was he more "liberal" inclined, trying to find individuals who knew them to interview?

    That's a tremendous waste of time and effort when 90% of the time even AFTER all that effort you won't be able to come up with a solid answer.  There's NO RISK OF SACRILEGE and it's perfectly sufficient to know that there's a mindeset and tendency very common in the Conciliar Church to play free and loose with the Sacramental Rites and to "ad lib" stuff.  I've heard it myriad times from priests that the priests SHOULD "ad lib" Sacramental Rites because that's "how the early Church did it."  That relatively-widespread attitude more than suffices for the CONDITIONAL use of the Sacrament, and likely even strongly commends it.

    It would be another matter if the Church did not have conditional forms of the Sacraments but only permitted the absolute celebration and youl could be committing a sacrilege by "redo"-ing Baptism.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #7 on: November 18, 2024, 02:56:37 PM »
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  • The problem is that the Church *initially, always* presumes validity.

    Absolutely not.  It depends on which group you come over from.  Depending on that, in many cases positive doubt is presumed.  NO (in our judgment) falls squarely into that category ... rather than, say, the Orthodox, who use very precise Sacramental Rites and among whom there's no tendency or culture of "ad libing" or deviating from those Rites.

    You can read that the issue is with individuals who go around "indiscriminately" administering conditionals.  "Hey, just in case the priest got the words wrong when you were baptized as a bay, if you are not baptized, I baptize you ..."

    That is the kind of scenario they're talking about, not where you have a non-Catholic religion (essentially) where the priests cannot be trusted as a rule to properly follow established Sacramental Rites.

    There's nothing "indiscriminate" about administering conditional Baptism for anyone coming over from the Novus Ordo.

    As per many issues in the Church today, there is error to both extremes.  Examples given are some guy who doesn't even ask whether someone was baptized and just starts rattling off the forumla "indiscriminately".  As I said, that's certainly an abuse.  So when the faithful come to your chapel, you ask them.  So, are you baptized?  If so, where and by whome were you baptized?  Then, depending on how they answer you may conditionally Baptize.  So, for instance, if they tell you, "I was baptized by the Greek Orthodox." or "I was baptized by a Maronite priest." vs. "I was 'baptized' by the Mormons [invalid]." vs. "I was baptized by some Evangelical group where we walked into the river."  Some GROUPS occasion no positive doubt (Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, etc.), whereas others inherently entail invalidity (Moron) or positive doubt (many Prot groups that just make it up as they go along).  That is what's meant by making "due inquiry", not that I need to go track down this Prot minister and interrogate him about his beliefs and take his word for it if he claims that he used the formula, etc.  If you don't make that inquiry, and start just baptizing everyone that shows up ... and it turns out they were baptized Orthodox or Maronite or some other group ... then THAT is when you commit sin by indiscriminately baptizing.  But if you ask and find it it's some Prot group, you just go ahead and do it ... conditionally.

    You don't do it indiscriminately, without reasonable inquiry, but you also don't have to launch some absurd investigation to somehow prove positive doubt in every given case.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #8 on: November 18, 2024, 03:09:26 PM »
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  • The examples given by Trent are clear - they do not apply to "doubtful baptism". IMO no one can presume the validly of N.O. baptisms based on their own admission. Keep in mind that these things have only become common knowledge recently, and you also have to factor in what the *DDF* is admitting.

    Right.  Trent was referring to case where the priest doesn't even bother to check and just randomly administers the Sacrament.  So the priest needs to make inquiry at a high level.  Orthodox?  Eastern Rite?  ... OK, valid, no conditional.  Methodist?  Evangelical?  doubtful, conditional (Novus Ordo fits in this group IMO)  Mormon? invalid, unconditional/absolute Baptism.

    Church used to maintain lists of which groups had Sacraments presumed valid w/o positive doubt, which groups were doubtful, and which groups were invalid ... and the pastor would act upon those group-level determinations.  Pastor would NOT be required (nor had the time to do it) to launch an investigation specific to the individual Prot pastor who baptized someone.  That's the right balance between being "indiscriminate" (too loose, making a joke of the Sacraments ... "hey, just in case you're not validly baptized" ... and then feeling that you have to conduct an individual case-by-case investigation worth of a diocesan marriage tribunal investigating an annulment.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #9 on: November 18, 2024, 03:22:22 PM »
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  • Trent's Catechism....

    For there are not wanting those who think that no sin is committed if they indiscriminately administer conditional Baptism. Hence if an infant be brought to them, they think that no inquiry need be made as to whether it was previously baptised, but proceed immediately to baptise the child.

    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #10 on: November 18, 2024, 04:08:57 PM »
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  • But, yes, I would recommend conditional Baptism / Confirmation and then Ordination for any priest baptized in the Novus Ordo, and just Baptism / Confirmation for anyone else baptized in the NO.  I've stated that here.

    Ladislaus,  if the priest was ordained prior to 1950, would you recommend the conditional Baptism?


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #11 on: November 18, 2024, 07:30:31 PM »
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  • Ladislaus,  if the priest was ordained prior to 1950, would you recommend the conditional Baptism?

    I don't understand.  He would have been baptized presumably in the 1920s when Catholic Baptisms were highly reliable 

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #12 on: November 18, 2024, 07:38:09 PM »
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  • Not quite.  Valid Holy Orders is not required to validly administer the Sacrament of Baptism.
    What is the case with Matrimony?

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #13 on: November 18, 2024, 07:44:00 PM »
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  • …Mormon? invalid, unconditional/absolute Baptism.…

    I am unfamiliar with Mormon rites. What is their baptismal rite?

    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: Doubtful Validity of Sacraments Outside Tradition
    « Reply #14 on: November 18, 2024, 08:48:41 PM »
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  • I don’t recall exactly where I heard this, but someone was reviewing a videotape of the baptism (which I’m guessing was done sometime and the 90’s), and saw/heard that the priest did the “we” form instead of “I”.  This person brought this tape to her priest, who after viewing conditionally baptized her. Or at least that’s how I remember it.

    Regarding baptisms in general, and especially those done outside the Church, I have found this to be a decent guide: https://www.dosp.org/wp-content/uploads/9_3.-Valid-and-Invalid-Baptisms.pdf