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Author Topic: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics  (Read 3757 times)

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Offline Johannes

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St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
« on: November 22, 2024, 10:22:26 AM »
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    • From above:

    St. Servatus - "It is not from hearsay that I know what he has been teaching, but from having myself heard it. Our churches are adjacent; many times I have had occasion to contradict him, when he has denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. It has even happened in the presence of Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria... I judge that he can no longer be bishop of Christians; and those do not deserve to be considered Christians who remain in communion with him."

    By what authority did Servatus "judge" the bishop of Cologne and declare him deposed? He wasn't his superior but rather his equal.

    Why did he say that those who followed the heretic were not properly to be called "Christians" simply for maintaining communion with the heretic?

    What do you think Servatus would have said & done if he were alive today?
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #1 on: November 22, 2024, 10:49:12 AM »
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    • In Lives of the Saints (Butler's?) it is mentioned that Constantine was a heretic. But wasn't Constanine a Pagan who later converted to Catholicism on this deathbed, baptized by a semi-Arian? 

    The Arian situation was a difficult one. St. Servatus stood firm in the faith, and tried to denounce the heresy of Arianism. But did the actual Church ever declare that those who unfortunately followed the Arian heretics were not to be considered Christians? We don't really know much about what followed in the aftermath of the start of the downfall of Arianism, after it was condemned by the council at Nicaea in 325.

    In any case, St. Servatus was a teaching bishop. We are laity. Unless you consider that we are on the same level as Catholic bishops. That's something that the new synodal church teaches, as supported by Pope Francis, wouldn't that be correct?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #2 on: November 22, 2024, 11:13:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 22, 2024, 11:02:24 AM
    In some sense, the "Synodal church" of Francis does teach that now yes, you are correct.

    The root of ^^ this error actually stems from "Collegiately" as expressed by V2.

    1) Undermine Papal Supremacy, by bringing bishops up the level to of the pope,

    2) Then undermine the papacy itself as strictly necessary (which Francis just did in his new study put out by Kurt Koch),

    3) Then undermine the episcopacy by bringing the "people of God" up to the level of the bishops,

    Now, you have, properly speaking a "new church" with an inverted (therefore Satanic) structure.

    By asserting that we the laity have the same binding authority to judge as bishops, aren't you also bringing the "people of God" up to the level of the bishops?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #3 on: November 22, 2024, 11:31:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 22, 2024, 11:24:56 AM
    See my above post ^^ for a little more depth on this.

    The authority we have is only "binding" on our own conscience. This is the 3rd time I have already stated this to you.

    But we still have obligations to fight for principles of the truth i.e., public heretics do not belong to the Church but are cast forth from the Body as St. Servatus did. Each of us must work out their "Daddy Issues" with fear and trembling.

    St. Servatus - ora pro nobis

    God bless you

    Yes, you keep stating that, and then you keep posting as though we are all supposed to fall in line with your opinions. Which we are actually not required to do. So I'll keep reminding you of this. 

    Yes, we have obligations to fight for truth, but we are not teaching bishops. We cannot bind anyone's conscience. And we also do not have the authority to judge the status of the Pope. Again, we are the laity. St. Servatus was a teaching bishop. I'm not interested in using the same criteria as Francis when it comes to the laity controlling the Church and other Catholics. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #4 on: November 22, 2024, 11:43:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 22, 2024, 11:38:41 AM
    That is what you think, but it is not in fact true. Don't project your "Daddy Issues" on me.

    Yes, I agree - that is what I think. We all here have our opinions, which we try to defend. We are allowed to do that.

    For the record, I don't believe that we should focus so much on the faults of Daddy and the faults of those who believe that he is the pope. What you are really doing, IMO, is focusing on how we cannot and should not believe that he is the pope. So in that sense, it's not really about Francis - it's about other traditional Catholics, and your judgment of them (us). 

    Francis can't save us. It's our Lord Jesus Christ who saves us, though His Holy Catholic Church.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #5 on: November 22, 2024, 12:05:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 22, 2024, 12:02:14 PM
    Francis is a heretic. I have no brotherhood with heretics. How about you?

    What do you mean by brotherhood? Does this mean that you cannot ever talk to a heretic? I think that's how the orthodox jews think too. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #6 on: November 22, 2024, 12:12:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 22, 2024, 12:10:00 PM
    Read ^^ and learn woman!

    How about if you go the grocery store, and want to make a purchase? How do you know if the cashier is a heretic, or not? Do you ask him or her if he or she is a heretic, to make that determination? And then, will you refuse to speak to him or her if he or she is a heretic? 

    How about family members or neighbors who may be heretics. Do you refuse to speak to them too? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #7 on: November 22, 2024, 12:19:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Johannes on November 22, 2024, 12:16:57 PM
    :facepalm: Don't be silly, read and learn O woman!

    Since you value your opinion, what is your opinion? What do you mean by brotherhood? What does it mean to you? If you still talk to heretics, then where do you draw a line in the sand? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: St. Servatus and Judging Heretics
    « Reply #8 on: November 22, 2024, 12:56:20 PM »
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    • Johannes,

    Something must have went wrong with your cut and paste method, because I'm not seeing anything. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29
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