Author Topic: Charismatic Renewal Defended (Read 4934 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #20 on:** April 05, 2010, 10:41:09 PM »

I wonder if any of these gentlemen actually pray for an increase of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost, you know, the old ones like Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Prudence, Fear, Piety and/or Fortitude? The fact that they don't pray for them, and wait to receive their plenitude by degrees, but instead, fancy themselves to call down at will gratis datae, and very poor imitiation at that, speaks volumes about their true spiritual state and understanding of the spiritual life in general. Extraordinary grace is by definition sinful to desire. Thus their "spirit filled" meetings are nothing but sin upon sin.

Mentioning allegedly "good" things that are derived from this aberration is kind of like being a used car salesman. They mention an apparent good, but fail to confront any problems. Take for instance the priest who decided not to leave the priesthood because of an "experience." So he didn't leave the priesthood, but what is the actual quality of the priest? Does he stay only to further destroy the Church? No one says because there is no real discernment. These men do not take a second look at anything in their intense desire to justify themselves. They are too infatuated with satisfying their own wills while pretending to call it an inspiration of the Holy Ghost. They haven't even begun to travel the way of the Spirit, a way that would utterly dismay and confuse them. But as was said, since they desire the extraordinary, the first sin of the spiritual life, they hand themselves over to the Devil in yet another of the myraid of ways in which he ensares souls.

stevusmagnus · « **Reply #21 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:08:46 AM »

Quote

I believe it is the duty of the Magisterium (i.e. the Pope together with the bishops) to interpret the docuмents of Vatican II in light of Tradition, not some armchair theologian. Also, the likes of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are much more highly educated than yourself. Not to mention that it is their duty, not yours, to pastor Christ's flock here on earth. If they say that the Charismatic Renewal is okay, so long as it remains faithful to Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium and avoids the extremes and excesses that can befall any movement within the Church, then I think I'll trust them.

Secondly, the Mass prayed in English is perfectly valid, albeit the translation is faulty. It was approved by the bishops and by Rome. These are the people in charge of the Mass and other liturgies. While it is not recommended because it would not be a very pastoral move, they do have the right to change the Mass of their own particular Church.

Thirdly, the quotes from St. John of the Cross from that apologetics website are taken out of context. If you read the rest of the Ascent of Mount Carmel, and also the writings of Teresa of Avila, you'll see that St. John does admit the occurence of spiritual phenomena. What he discourages is seeking after the phenomena in themselves and building one's spiritual life around those phenomena. Teresa, on the other hand, seems to encourage seeking after the phenomena in her autobiography as well as the Interior Castle. However, she also admits that one needs to work very closely with a spiritual director. I'll admit that there can be a tendency among many charismatics to seek after the spiritual phenomena for their own sakes. But that is just one of the extremes that must be avoided. The Charismatic Renewal isn't all about speaking in tongues, resting in the spirit, prophecy, etc. It simply admits that these things can and do happen.

sedetrad · « **Reply #22 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:23:51 AM »

These charismatics are insane. Stevus has used nothing but logic in his discussions and got nothing but illogical fluff in reply.

Belloc · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:27:26 AM »

I lived trough the Charismatic height in the 70's, even as part of confirmation, forced to go to a "Fire rally"-we were told at the end to give God hearty applause or something inane as that........it is merely a Catholic sounding shell on Pentecostalism...

God does not need a "shout out" or applause.he demands obediance and worship....

Belloc · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2010, 10:34:06 AM »

"Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME. You name it, they do it. They truly are an orthodox community who are charismatic."

if you bake a meat pie, and you use fresh veggies and meath that is 90% fresh, 10 rancid, is not the whole thing then ruined and un-eatable?

does not exorcists tell us that Satan will often times speak truth, but infuse lies and ambiguity?

"Evil always hides in ambiguity, evil always triumps through the sterngth of its splendid dupes" paraphrase quote from GK Chesterton