Author Topic: Charismatic Renewal Defended  (Read 2902 times)

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Offline stevusmagnus

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Charismatic Renewal Defended
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2010, 07:41:44 PM »
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes  
    stevusmagnus,
    I must ask whether or not you believe that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is even valid.


    When said in Latin with proper form, intention, and matter yes.

    Most vernacular translations are mistranslations of the Latin and thus their validity may be doubtful for lack of form. They also open themselves up to wrong intent.

    See here.

    In addition the intention of many priests today who do not even know what the Mass is or the true meaning of the priesthood can be called into doubt.


    Quote:
    The bolded part of your statement above is what makes me ask this question. It also betrays an extremely limited knowledge/view of the Roman Rite of the Mass as well as all the other Latin Rite Masses that have existed and continue to the present day (not to mention the wider context that includes all the various liturgies celebrated in the Christian East [of which I am a member]). Christ did not give us the Tridentine Missal at the Last Supper. Neither has the Tridentine Mass always been the same throughout the ages. I've read that were the Missal of 1962 celebrated for someone who lived immediately after Trent, it would be unrecognizable to that person (forgive me, but I don't remember my source, possibly "History and Future of the Roman Liturgy").

    The Roman Rite was normalized in the time of St. Gregory the Great in the 500's and emanated from the oldest liturgy of all. Small incremental changes appeared over a thousand years. Never was a mass fabricated out of thin air by committee.

    Quote:
    I also note that you've shifted your arguements from Pentecostal "worship" to Pentecostal "prayer methods." I must ask, what makes you an authority in prayer methods and who gives you the authority to judge whether a prayer method is authentic/appropriate or not.

    Whether or not the prayer methods, worship, what have you, meet the criteria of 1960 years of Christendom, Catholic practice, an Papal teaching. These do not. They are novel Protestant inventions copied by Catholics in an attempt to "inculturate" Protestants and hope to win converts.

    Quote:
    I also second the motion that you read the lives and writings of the great saints and see what their "prayer methods" were. A cursory look at St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis of Assisi will reveal prayer lives that were both heavily emotional as well as contemplative. Also, looking at the writings of Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross will demonstrate to you that things like "resting in the Spirit" (what they might consider a lower form of ecstacy), visions, locutions, etc. were/are and have always been very common in the spiritual life, especially among those who are actively seeking a deeper relationship with God. They would also emphasize submitting one's experiences to a spiritual guide and to the appropriate authorities of the Church. This is something which most charismatics are very scrupulous about doing.

    I can assure you that the great mystics of the Church never took part in anything resembling Charismatic prayer worship and, in fact, they would have fleed from it and been horrified. They faithfully assisted at the TLM which they constantly praised.

    Quote:
    Finally, before you stand as judge over Franciscan University of Steubenville and what goes on there, I must point out that their entire faculty take an oath of fidelity to the Magisterium at the beginning of every new school year. The University is also very dear to and loved by Pope Benedict XVI (presuming you give any credence to our current Holy Father).

    That is wonderful, though it doesn't take away from anything I've said.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 08:34:17 PM »
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  • Modern day "charismatics" are simply Quietists by another name.  Not only do they most greviously err by thinking they can "call down" extraordinary gifts which are by their nature entirely dependant upon the good pleasure of God in bestowing, or in other words, it would be like thinking that I could call on the gift of prophecy at my own wimsy, they seem to think, like the heretical quietists, that they can essentially bypass the ordinary, well-traveled way of sanctity and create a much quicker, convenient and extremely self-satisfying delusion.  They have the audacity to cite St. Theresa, et. al. who would most certainly have vigorously denounced their spiritual perversity.  They violate the First Commandment of the spiritual life -- do not seek anything extraordinary or you will surely become prey of the Devil.    


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #17 on: April 05, 2010, 09:17:34 PM »
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    It might be helpful to look at some differences between Catholic and non-Catholic Charismatic Worship.
    Before becoming a part of the Renewal, I was invited to a Pentecostal Holiness service. It is allowable to attend worship services with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters providing we have first attended Mass. The person who invited me was surprised that I could merely observe what happened without being moved or involved. What I saw was a purely emotional service. Men and women were separated before the main service into "prayer closets." At the end of the service a young boy in ecstasy was baptized. There was no intellectual ascent to the baptism. I did fear the possibility of a Jim Jones type situation.
    The focus was on the gifts as the sole criteria for whether or not a person was saved.

    Fast forward to the personal crisis that I faced. Everything I did through my own efforts failed miserably. This led me to an Easter retreat. The retreat house was run by the Marians. Having attended a Jesus Day Conference (non Charismatic) in Chicago, I knew to let go and expect a miracle. That miracle occurred on Ascension Thursday. I experienced Pentecost. It is to this center that I drove weekly to participate in the nearest Charismatic Prayer group.
    An objection has been raised that Charismatics open themselves to demonic influence. Yet every meeting begins with a prayer of protection against Satan. Is God not more powerful than the devil? Did Jesus himself not say "A house divided cannot stand" when accused of being Beelzebub?
    While the charismatic gifts are manifested, it is not these gifts which are the focus of worship. It is the Giver of the gifts who receives our praise and thanksgiving. Earlier posts have described a typical Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting. I use the word "meeting" to differentiate from a liturgical service.

    During this year's Easter homily, the priest talked about how we are an "Easter people," a "running people." He shared how as a child he would run home with good news and his feet would drag when the news was not so good. Mary ran when she found the tomb empty. Likewise, the Apostles ran to the empty tomb, Peter entering first. They ran to share what had happened When a person experiences Pentecost there is an overwhelming desire to "run and share the good news." I have already shared the witness of a priest who chose not to leave the priesthood as a result of his experience.

    The Little Flowers of Saint Francis describes several instances in which a person "lay as if dead" for as long as three days. One instance described occurs while celebrating Mass. Saint Ignatius, in his autobiography, describes a sudden overwhelming desire to exult God as he leaves Paris.

    A history of missionary efforts will show that it is the Catholic Church, the Universal Church, that was more likely to accept cultural differences and forms of worship than our non-Catholic counterparts. While the liturgical form of the Mass has evolved throughout history, its essential parts have not changed.
    Even if a person attends Mass daily, it is not the only form of prayer in which Catholics take part. There are many forms of devotion including but not limited to litanies, novenas, and the rosary. Catholic Charismatics incorporate these forms into their individual prayer life. This prayer life may also include the Liturgy of the Hours and Lectio Divina. Regardless of where we are in our individual walk with Christ, we are called to submit our lives to God and to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #18 on: April 05, 2010, 09:21:33 PM »
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  •  :fryingpan:

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #19 on: April 05, 2010, 09:30:07 PM »
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  • http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/chrsmat.htm

      Is the Charismatic Movement Catholic?


       Charismatism takes its origins from Protestant Pentecostalism in the United States and it has spread throughout the Catholic Church by the "Baptism in the Spirit".

    This spiritual baptism is an innovation which the Charismatic renewal attempts to justify by claiming that with the sacraments the Catholic Church has not fulfilled all the abundance of the Gospels: "The over flowing and abundance of the New Testament should not be hastily assimilated to subsequent sacramental forms" (Fr Laurentin, Charismatic apologist, in his book Pentecôtisme chez les Catholiques, Beauchesne, 1975).  Now, the Catholic Church alone is the custodian of the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ.  It transmits infallibly the blessings of the Gospels in the only true Sacraments.  "My God, I firmly believe all the Truths which You have revealed to us and which You have taught us through Your Church, because You can neither deceive nor be deceived."  (Act of Faith)

    Regarding the emphasis put on charisms:

    1.  The presence of charisms is not sufficient to prove their divine origin:
     "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in Thy name, and cast out devils in Thy name, and done many miracles in Thy name?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity."  (Matt. VII: 21-23)
     "There are people whom the devil does not prevent in any way from doing much good because the good which they do serves him to deceive them."  (Fr. Lallemant, La Doctrine Spirituelle, Paris, 1882, p. 253)

    2.  The Catholic Church is built on the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity and not on charisms which are only lower gifts which must be controlled by the Church.
     "But be zealous of the better gifts.  And I show unto you yet a more excellent way."  (I Cor. XII :31)

     "Certain people value above all amongst the spiritual gifts, that of performing miracles, which are to be seen, forgetting that there are many others higher, which are hidden and because of that not liable to fall."  (St. John Climacus, Scala Paradisi, 26th degree, 78)
     "In comparison with Charity which is perfect, these gifts are of little consequence and those who are at that level can fall while those who have Charity do not fall.  I tell you that I have seen men who have received all the charisms and who have become participants in the Spirit and who nonetheless fell because they did not achieve perfect Charity".  (St. Macarius Magnus, IVth c., Spiritual Homilies, II, 27, 14)

    Regarding its search of extraordinary signs and wonders:

    1.  Risk of illusion:
     "And I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, 'God told me,' 'God answered me.'  Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution."  (St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29) (1)

    2.  Possession by the devil:

     "Through the desire of accepting them one opens the door to the devil.  The devil can then deceive one by other communications expertly feigned and disguised as genuine.  In the words of the Apostle, he can transform himself into an 'angel of light' (II Cor. XI:14). (...)  Regardless of the cause of these apprehensions, it is always good for a man to reject them with closed eyes.  If he fails to do so, he will make room for those having a diabolical origin and empower the devil to impose his communications.  Not only this, but the diabolical representations will multiply while those from God will gradually cease, so that eventually all will come from the devil and none at all from God.  This has occurred with many incautious and uninstructed people."  (St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 11) (1)

    Regarding its suspicion of the Church's Hierarchy:

     The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church is seen as a stifling human institution:
     "In so far as the ecclesiastical institution is constructed in the form of a hierarchical and closed juridical structure, in so far as it is organised, not according to the spirit of charism but by coopting clergy monopolising the resources, the knowledge, the power and the initiative in the Church, the Charismatic thrusts have been stifled."  (Fr Laurentin, Ibid.)  Now this hierarchy derives from God Himself: "He said therefore to them again: 'Peace be with you.  As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you.' " (John XX 21)  "And I say to thee: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.  And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."  (Matth. XVI 18)

    Regarding its ecumenism:

     "Originating from Protestant families, I was baptised a Protestant.  Today, I know that God wants me to be a Protestant.  I have gradually felt that I must not separate myself from my Protestant Church but to bring myself closer to it."  (Testament of a young girl in the Bethany Community, in Revue Tychique, No. 52, p.10)
     "There will not be a real Judeo - Christian dialogue until the return of the Lord, except when Christians are truly Christian and the Jews truly Jewish."  (Brother Ephraim, Founder of the Community of the Beatitudes, in Cahiers du Renouveau,  No. 64, p.13)

    Now, the Catholic Church teaches infallibly: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation'.
     "The Catholic Church alone keeps the true worship.  It is the Church of Truth, the home of the Faith, the temple of God; he who does not enter it or he who leaves it, loses all hope of life and salvation.  Do not let anyone hold a dogged view.  It is a question of life and of salvation.  If one does not watch out carefully and prudently, it is ruination and death."  (Lactantius; IIIrd c., Catholic apologist.)

    Conclusion:

    Charismatic Renewal is therefore not Catholic.


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #20 on: April 05, 2010, 10:41:09 PM »
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  • I wonder if any of these gentlemen actually pray for an increase of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost, you know, the old ones like Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Prudence, Fear, Piety and/or Fortitude?  The fact that they don't pray for them, and wait to receive their plenitude by degrees, but instead, fancy themselves to call down at will gratis datae, and very poor imitiation at that, speaks volumes about their true spiritual state and understanding of the spiritual life in general.  Extraordinary grace is by definition sinful to desire.  Thus their "spirit filled" meetings are nothing but sin upon sin.  

    Mentioning allegedly "good" things that are derived from this aberration is kind of like being a used car salesman.  They mention an apparent good, but fail to confront any problems.  Take for instance the priest who decided not to leave the priesthood because of an "experience."  So he didn't leave the priesthood, but what is the actual quality of the priest?  Does he stay only to further destroy the Church?  No one says because there is no real discernment.  These men do not take a second look at anything in their intense desire to justify themselves.  They are too infatuated with satisfying their own wills while pretending to call it an inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  They haven't even begun to travel the way of the Spirit, a way that would utterly dismay and confuse them.  But as was said, since they desire the extraordinary, the first sin of the spiritual life, they hand themselves over to the Devil in yet another of the myraid of ways in which he ensares souls.    

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #21 on: April 06, 2010, 10:08:46 AM »
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    I believe it is the duty of the Magisterium (i.e. the Pope together with the bishops) to interpret the documents of Vatican II in light of Tradition, not some armchair theologian.  Also, the likes of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are much more highly educated than yourself. Not to mention that it is their duty, not yours, to pastor Christ's flock here on earth. If they say that the Charismatic Renewal is okay, so long as it remains faithful to Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium and avoids the extremes and excesses that can befall any movement within the Church, then I think I'll trust them.

    Secondly, the Mass prayed in English is perfectly valid, albeit the translation is faulty. It was approved by the bishops and by Rome. These are the people in charge of the Mass and other liturgies. While it is not recommended because it would not be a very pastoral move, they do have the right to change the Mass of their own particular Church.

    Thirdly, the quotes from St. John of the Cross from that apologetics website are taken out of context. If you read the rest of the Ascent of Mount Carmel, and also the writings of Teresa of Avila, you'll see that St. John does admit the occurence of spiritual phenomena. What he discourages is seeking after the phenomena in themselves and building one's spiritual life around those phenomena. Teresa, on the other hand, seems to encourage seeking after the phenomena in her autobiography as well as the Interior Castle. However, she also admits that one needs to work very closely with a spiritual director. I'll admit that there can be a tendency among many charismatics to seek after the spiritual phenomena for their own sakes. But that is just one of the extremes that must be avoided. The Charismatic Renewal isn't all about speaking in tongues, resting in the spirit, prophecy, etc. It simply admits that these things can and do happen.

    Offline sedetrad

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    « Reply #22 on: April 06, 2010, 10:23:51 AM »
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  • These charismatics are insane. Stevus has used nothing but logic in his discussions and got nothing but illogical fluff in reply.


    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #23 on: April 06, 2010, 10:27:26 AM »
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  • I lived trough the Charismatic height in the 70's, even as part of confirmation, forced to go to a "Fire rally"-we were told at the end to give God hearty applause or something inane as that........it is merely a Catholic sounding shell on Pentecostalism...

    God does not need a "shout out" or applause.he demands obediance and worship....
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #24 on: April 06, 2010, 10:34:06 AM »
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  • "Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME. You name it, they do it. They truly are an orthodox community who are charismatic."

    if you bake a meat pie, and you use fresh veggies and meath that is 90% fresh, 10 rancid, is not the whole thing then ruined and un-eatable?

    does not exorcists tell us that Satan will often times speak truth, but infuse lies and ambiguity?

    "Evil always hides in ambiguity, evil always triumps through the sterngth of its splendid dupes" paraphrase quote from GK Chesterton
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic

    Offline Belloc

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    « Reply #25 on: April 06, 2010, 10:39:29 AM »
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  • "The form of worship that they utilize is the Ordinary Form of the Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours. Where you get the idea that these are "Pentecostal" or "Protestant" is beyond me (unless of course you're calling the Ordinary Form itself into question). "

    well, this guy is not even close to understanding the grave faults of the NO....apparently, he does not have Pentecostals in Canada or even really understands what it is about....

    reminds me of arguing, in vain, with a fellow that would accept much of what Stevus aopponent would say, their minds are closed in connecting the dots to the subversion before and esp, at VII and afterwards....like Bishop Williamson has stated, some people do not have the capacity for reasoning....they get to a point nad cannot go further....he has stated "you cannot talk to a person unhinged, you cannot open or swing a door that is laying on the floor..their minds are unhinged"
    Proud "European American" and prouder, still, Catholic


    Offline Caminus

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    « Reply #26 on: April 06, 2010, 12:07:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    Quote
    I believe it is the duty of the Magisterium (i.e. the Pope together with the bishops) to interpret the documents of Vatican II in light of Tradition, not some armchair theologian.  Also, the likes of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are much more highly educated than yourself. Not to mention that it is their duty, not yours, to pastor Christ's flock here on earth. If they say that the Charismatic Renewal is okay, so long as it remains faithful to Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium and avoids the extremes and excesses that can befall any movement within the Church, then I think I'll trust them.

    Secondly, the Mass prayed in English is perfectly valid, albeit the translation is faulty. It was approved by the bishops and by Rome. These are the people in charge of the Mass and other liturgies. While it is not recommended because it would not be a very pastoral move, they do have the right to change the Mass of their own particular Church.

    Thirdly, the quotes from St. John of the Cross from that apologetics website are taken out of context. If you read the rest of the Ascent of Mount Carmel, and also the writings of Teresa of Avila, you'll see that St. John does admit the occurence of spiritual phenomena. What he discourages is seeking after the phenomena in themselves and building one's spiritual life around those phenomena. Teresa, on the other hand, seems to encourage seeking after the phenomena in her autobiography as well as the Interior Castle. However, she also admits that one needs to work very closely with a spiritual director. I'll admit that there can be a tendency among many charismatics to seek after the spiritual phenomena for their own sakes. But that is just one of the extremes that must be avoided. The Charismatic Renewal isn't all about speaking in tongues, resting in the spirit, prophecy, etc. It simply admits that these things can and do happen.


    I just can't believe how stupid these people are.  Now who's an "arm chair" theologian?  Even a cursory reading of St. John of the Cross would suppress any such delusions, but nooo, they just keep right on going.  

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #27 on: April 06, 2010, 06:28:00 PM »
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  • Apparently St. Pius X is a fan as well...

    Quote
    I am looking at the back of my St. Pius X holy card.
    St. Pius X "inaugurated liturgical renewal and the restoration of frequent Communion from childhood...His overriding concern was to renew all things in Christ."

    Each of us, regardless of where we are in our walk with Christ is called to holiness, to continued conversion. Rather than look at the Renewal as a movement, look instead at how the charisms, presuming they are real, might help your own walk with Christ.
    It is not merely the past four popes who have given their blessing to the Charismatic Renewal, but the bishops as well who have given their ascent to the authenticity of the gifts, these special graces which come from God.
    The OP asked the question, "What is the Charismatic Renewal?" I have limited my responses to the magisterial teaching of the Church as laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as my own experience.
    One of the most common songs during a Charismatic prayer meeting is "Seek first the Kingdom of God."
    St. Pius X gave "great impetus to biblical studies and the codification of Canon Law." "From St. Pius X we learn again that 'the folly of the cross,' simplicity of life, and humility of heart are still the highest wisdom and the indispensable conditions of a perfect Christian life, for they are the very source of all apostolic fruitfulness."
    In light of the teachings of St. Pius X, I second the challenge laid out in "One Bread, One Body" to read the entire NT during this Easter Season. See what scripture itself says about the charisms.

    I did not seek membership in a particular movement. As already stated, I would not return the gifts I have received even if I could. I knew full well the objections I would face when I accepted these gifts, the main reason I immediately made an appointment with my pastor to describe my experience. Receipt of the gifts did not change the outcome of the crisis I faced. Knowledge of God dwelling within my heart and being with me during every moment of my life gave me a Peace I would not otherwise have experienced during a very trying time. He gave me the strength to forgive, to move forward along the path He had chosen for my life.

    Offline spouse of Jesus

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    « Reply #28 on: April 06, 2010, 06:51:40 PM »
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  •   You can do nasty things and then ask why you get persecuted.  :fryingpan:
      There is prot church here which has secret weird members. Unlike other christians who have some defined freedoms, they always catch into some trouble and get smaller day by day. Their is a semi-dark and unadorned temple with a minister who says he is a jew by birth, His cloths are ridiculous and his sermons are as mysterious as his church. He speaks about The Holy Spirit as though He was a UFO or a secret agent that would come out of blue. Their title is 'England church' and now they allow dogs and homos.
    Whatever they do, they say that The Spirit made them do that. If you ask them what they plan to do, they say that they are waiting for The Spirit to decide.
     I think it is very natural that the gov treats them like that.

    Offline stevusmagnus

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    « Reply #29 on: April 06, 2010, 06:59:43 PM »
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