Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 02:16:33 PM

Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 02:16:33 PM
It seems my post on the "Charismatic Renewal" struck a nerve.

Here is my post:

Quote
The "Charismatic Renewal" is nothing more than Pentecostal (heretical and irreverent) worship practices and theology being adopted by some Catholics.

It is especially dangerous because it opens the door to demonic influence. Many claiming to be "speaking in tongues" are being obsessed by demons.

There is a story that recalls Bishop Sheen being taken to see a charismatic service. One of the participants started "speaking in tongues" in Hebrew, a language the Bishop understood. He told his companion they needed to leave at once as the speaker, unknowingly, had just blasphemed God!

Here is video evidence that the "Charismatic Renewal" is not Catholic and all Catholics should stay far, far away.

http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8 (http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8)
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 02:18:19 PM
Response:

Quote
At this point it's time for me to disclose some information, of which likely won't matter to some. I live in Ottawa, Ontario Canada. Been here since 2000 when I moved here for college. Ten minutes from my apartment is a Church called Saint Mary's. They have perpetual Adoration there, which is wonderful. A very Eucharistic centered parish,

The Church is the home base for a group of priests called the "Companions of the Cross". They are "a community of Roman Catholic priests, which is Eucharistic, Charismatic, Marian and Magisterial". They've been around for a few years now, and are actively involved in several activities in Ottawa. Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME. You name it, they do it. They truly are an orthodox community who are charismatic.

A few years pass. In 2002, at Notre Dame Cathedral in Ottawa, they celebrated becoming a Society of Apostolic Life. This, of course, was a result with official approval from the Vatican. Notable people within the Vatican at that time was one Pope John Paul II, and our current Pope Benedict XVI (then the head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith). This means, from the top on down, the methodology used and taught by the Companions of the Cross was....is....and continues to be.....promoted and endorsed by the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.


Think about this. And think about the implications based on what some (most recently Steve) have said. This group who lists in their mission "charismatic" was granted this status. This is not a tacit approval, this is an outright no-joke APPROVAL with a large APPROVED stamp.

Think about this.


There's no point of arguing or discussing things with certain people. Some of the people who have posted in this thread will, despite all that is shown to them, will simply not listen. They will continue to have their pre-conceived notions. "Heretics". "Modernists". 'Liberals". They'll say what they say, and continue to keep their ears plugged on this matter. They do not bother to ask or talk about beliefs, they simply just assume and accuse. I've asked a couple of these people to send me a PM to see if our orthodoxies are similar. No responses yet, probably because it's easier to accuse and assume others.


Now make no mistake, I'm an adherent to the principles set forth by Saint Francis of Assisi, and I've been very vocal about that on these boards (some day I will join the SFO. Not a matter of "if", but "when"). But I know Father Robert Bedard. I know the Companions of the Cross. I know what they teach, their formation process. I've heard their sermons, I've heard talks. You will be hard pressed to find anyone more orthodox than them, and this isn't lip service. I refuse to sit here and have you continue to deface what they do.

Father Bob Bedard is an old man now, and his health is failing. Dementia has set in, and tragically he doesn't have much time yet. He has long set his duties has head of the order aside, with the current person charge being Father Scott McCaig. I know Father Scott, and you would be hard pressed to find a better priest (or a better man). But by saying what you all say, you mock a great man of God, one who took his vision and made something of it. Instead of breaking away from Rome, he ran to Rome. He embraced Rome. He embraced the Eucharist, he embraced Our Mother. There is no coincidence the home base of the Companions of the Cross has Perpetual Adoration at a Church named after St. Mary. He remained obedient. He was rewarded, and I firmly believe that he will be rewarded when he passes on. Some of you ask for people to be respectful to the work performed by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. Yet here the same people defame the work performed by Father Bob Bedard and his Order.


This, of course, does not include other groups involved within the charismatic movement. This does not include those allied with St. Francis of Assisi. When the time comes I (and likely my wife as well) will join them fraternally through the SFO. Do not defame my future brothers (and sisters). Do not defame the legacy of a man who I owe my life to. I came back to the Church due to a conference at the U of S, run by Franciscans.

My birthday? October 4th.

There are no such things as coincidences. There's not a doubt in my mind he's been interceding for me my whole life up until that point. He brought me to his legacy, and through the Grace of God and as working as instruments to His will....that legacy brought me home to Rome.

I'm not alone with this, others have been impacted as well. But in my case, it's fairly obvious, Too many things come together in such a way that it only makes sense. But please; stop defaming the legacy of this man, Saint Francis.


And stop defaming the works of those who have been TIRELESS in their efforts to promote the TRUTH of the Roman Catholic Faith.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Alexandria on April 05, 2010, 02:24:22 PM
It's easy to develop a schismatic attitude after reading this drivel.  Who would want to be "in communion" with these people?
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 02:26:45 PM
My latest:

Quote
I am in no way judging the interior dispositions or sincerity of the priests of that order or yours.

I am simply pointing out the fact that their Pentecostal worship methods are not Catholic and irreverent and they play with fire with their "slain in the spirit" and "tongues" practices, etc. This was common knowledge before VCII.

The Vatican has approved all sorts of nonsense in recent years including CITH, Girl Altar Boys, and the Neocatechumenal Way. They also heartily endorsed the Legionaries even though their founder was fathering children and abusing seminarians. So "approval" these days is hardly a reason to not discern carefully whether Catholics should participate in such movements.

I commend your desire to grow in holiness and your wanting to be a part of the Church bu this movement has it's roots in Protestantism and although they are trying their best to stick to some Traditional beliefs and practices, they are unknowingly practicing a sort of schizophrenic theology where one attempts to believe as a Catholic while worshiping like a Pentecostal. This cannot help but cause confusion and dissonance in the soul.

I pray for all involved in the Charismatic movement that they may some day come to the worship God ordained for Himself enshrined in the ancient Rites and ceremonies of the Church.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 03:27:57 PM
Quote
stevusmagnus,
While I myself am not, and have never considered myself, charismatic, I have spent a good deal of time among the charismatics. The form of worship that they utilize is the Ordinary Form of the Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours. Where you get the idea that these are "Pentecostal" or "Protestant" is beyond me (unless of course you're calling the Ordinary Form itself into question).

Claiming that the Renewal came out of Pentecostal Protestantism and is therefore bad is the similar to claiming that Protestantism came out of the Roman Catholic Church and is therefore good. Or, that since Protestantism is bad (if you want to use that logic), and it came from the Roman Catholic Church, then the Roman Catholic Church must be bad. It's simply logical fallacy.

Finally, if by charismatic worship you're referring to prayer meetings and "praise and worship," then let me remind you that spontaneous worship (outside of the Mass or Hours), even spontaneous worship utilizing music and contemporary musical instruments, is a very ancient thing. One simply has to look at the Psalms and at the various actions of King David before the Ark of the Covenant to see that not all worship is strictly ritualized. Nor is all worship strictly interior with no exterior element. Worship is meant to engage the entire person, body, mind and soul, not just the mind and soul.

As has been said before, yes things within the Renewal can be carried to an extreme. But things within the "traditionalist" movement can, and have, been carried to an extreme (one has only to think of the questionable status of the SSPX and the schismatic/heretical status of the sedevacantists and the various anti-Popes carousing around the U.S. claiming to be the "traditional" remnant of the Catholic Church).
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 03:29:02 PM
Quote
Yet another layman who claims to have greater insight than both JPII and the current pope....
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Alexandria on April 05, 2010, 03:35:31 PM

Sanctimonious hot air!

Almost all of them talk with the same condescending tone.  As I've said many times, they and the conciliar church deserve one another.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 03:39:31 PM
And they call us condescending and sanctimonious! Haha. ;)
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 04:01:31 PM
I asked him...

Do you believe this is appropriate Catholic worship?


Do you believe this is appropriate Catholic worship? http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8 (http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8)
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 05:46:13 PM
Here was his (amazing) answer:

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevusmagnus  
Do you believe this is appropriate Catholic worship?


http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8 (http://www.youtube.com/user/cfnjjv#p/a/u/0/d-Eg7via3q8)

Quote
After watching the video, I can say that if the context is understood, nothing is inappropriate. You must remember that "Praise and Worship," "Holy Hour," and "Slain in the Spirit Sessions" ARE NOT part of the Mass. If you think that the Mass is the ONLY way that we can worship, then you are gravely mistaken. The Mass excerpt that was shown had no inappropriate practices. I think you need to realize that you cannot put God in a box.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 05:54:06 PM
Quote from: I
Unfortunately, this confirms you have no Catholic sensibility. If you did, your Catholic conscience would run in horror from the video, as any faithful Catholic would have Pre-VCII before they were "desensitized". The crisis is so grave that "Catholics" now see nothing wrong with heretical Pentecostal "prayer" methods which originated outside the Church, are alien to Her, and open the door to demonic influence.

The Charismatics are the ones who "put God in a box" and dictate to God how it is that He shall be worshiped, ignoring God's instructions on how to properly worship Him which were given for 1960 years.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 06:15:36 PM
Quote
For anybody who thinks the charisms are a new phenomenon, I would recommend reading the various lives of Saints, including the Autobiography of Saint Ignatius and the Little Flowers of St. Francis.
It is the non-Catholic churches which rejected the pentecostal expression of some of their members leading to the establishment of The Pentecostal Holiness church and the Assembly of God.
I had a conversation with a non-Catholic once (a Baptist) who denied the reality of miracles after the time of the Apostles. This is contrary to the rich stories of Saints who used their charisms to heal others or held conversations with a Living God.

Every group to which I have belonged has stressed the importance of discernment, of submission to the magisterium of the Church.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 07:21:11 PM
Quote
I do not respond well to personal insults. The Holy SPirit has been giving these gifts since the Day of Pentecost.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 07:21:52 PM
Quote
stevusmagnus,
I must ask whether or not you believe that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is even valid. The bolded part of your statement above is what makes me ask this question. It also betrays an extremely limited knowledge/view of the Roman Rite of the Mass as well as all the other Latin Rite Masses that have existed and continue to the present day (not to mention the wider context that includes all the various liturgies celebrated in the Christian East [of which I am a member]). Christ did not give us the Tridentine Missal at the Last Supper. Neither has the Tridentine Mass always been the same throughout the ages. I've read that were the Missal of 1962 celebrated for someone who lived immediately after Trent, it would be unrecognizable to that person (forgive me, but I don't remember my source, possibly "History and Future of the Roman Liturgy").

I also note that you've shifted your arguements from Pentecostal "worship" to Pentecostal "prayer methods." I must ask, what makes you an authority in prayer methods and who gives you the authority to judge whether a prayer method is authentic/appropriate or not. I also second the motion that you read the lives and writings of the great saints and see what their "prayer methods" were. A cursory look at St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis of Assisi will reveal prayer lives that were both heavily emotional as well as contemplative. Also, looking at the writings of Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross will demonstrate to you that things like "resting in the Spirit" (what they might consider a lower form of ecstacy), visions, locutions, etc. were/are and have always been very common in the spiritual life, especially among those who are actively seeking a deeper relationship with God. They would also emphasize submitting one's experiences to a spiritual guide and to the appropriate authorities of the Church. This is something which most charismatics are very scrupulous about doing.

Finally, before you stand as judge over Franciscan University of Steubenville and what goes on there, I must point out that their entire faculty take an oath of fidelity to the Magisterium at the beginning of every new school year. The University is also very dear to and loved by Pope Benedict XVI (presuming you give any credence to our current Holy Father).
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Raoul76 on April 05, 2010, 07:29:56 PM
Quote
Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME


Quote
Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME

That reminds me, it's time for another NFP thread.  I am going to take one more shot at this topic, and this time I am cool enough to listen to objections.  

That Father Cantalamessa character has something to do with Charismatic Renewal.  It's another of those Vatican II concepts that are maddening and deleterious without being heretical.  

Let's face it, the apostles at Pentecost spoke in tongues.  The problem is that Vatican II Catholics are not Apostles, and this ain't no Pentecost, unless it's the descent of the Holy Ghost's evil twin.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 07:41:44 PM
Quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Rolfes  
stevusmagnus,
I must ask whether or not you believe that the Ordinary Form of the Mass is even valid.


When said in Latin with proper form, intention, and matter yes.

Most vernacular translations are mistranslations of the Latin and thus their validity may be doubtful for lack of form. They also open themselves up to wrong intent.

See here.

In addition the intention of many priests today who do not even know what the Mass is or the true meaning of the priesthood can be called into doubt.


Quote:
The bolded part of your statement above is what makes me ask this question. It also betrays an extremely limited knowledge/view of the Roman Rite of the Mass as well as all the other Latin Rite Masses that have existed and continue to the present day (not to mention the wider context that includes all the various liturgies celebrated in the Christian East [of which I am a member]). Christ did not give us the Tridentine Missal at the Last Supper. Neither has the Tridentine Mass always been the same throughout the ages. I've read that were the Missal of 1962 celebrated for someone who lived immediately after Trent, it would be unrecognizable to that person (forgive me, but I don't remember my source, possibly "History and Future of the Roman Liturgy").

The Roman Rite was normalized in the time of St. Gregory the Great in the 500's and emanated from the oldest liturgy of all. Small incremental changes appeared over a thousand years. Never was a mass fabricated out of thin air by committee.

Quote:
I also note that you've shifted your arguements from Pentecostal "worship" to Pentecostal "prayer methods." I must ask, what makes you an authority in prayer methods and who gives you the authority to judge whether a prayer method is authentic/appropriate or not.

Whether or not the prayer methods, worship, what have you, meet the criteria of 1960 years of Christendom, Catholic practice, an Papal teaching. These do not. They are novel Protestant inventions copied by Catholics in an attempt to "inculturate" Protestants and hope to win converts.

Quote:
I also second the motion that you read the lives and writings of the great saints and see what their "prayer methods" were. A cursory look at St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis of Assisi will reveal prayer lives that were both heavily emotional as well as contemplative. Also, looking at the writings of Sts. Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross will demonstrate to you that things like "resting in the Spirit" (what they might consider a lower form of ecstacy), visions, locutions, etc. were/are and have always been very common in the spiritual life, especially among those who are actively seeking a deeper relationship with God. They would also emphasize submitting one's experiences to a spiritual guide and to the appropriate authorities of the Church. This is something which most charismatics are very scrupulous about doing.

I can assure you that the great mystics of the Church never took part in anything resembling Charismatic prayer worship and, in fact, they would have fleed from it and been horrified. They faithfully assisted at the TLM which they constantly praised.

Quote:
Finally, before you stand as judge over Franciscan University of Steubenville and what goes on there, I must point out that their entire faculty take an oath of fidelity to the Magisterium at the beginning of every new school year. The University is also very dear to and loved by Pope Benedict XVI (presuming you give any credence to our current Holy Father).

That is wonderful, though it doesn't take away from anything I've said.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Caminus on April 05, 2010, 08:34:17 PM
Modern day "charismatics" are simply Quietists by another name.  Not only do they most greviously err by thinking they can "call down" extraordinary gifts which are by their nature entirely dependant upon the good pleasure of God in bestowing, or in other words, it would be like thinking that I could call on the gift of prophecy at my own wimsy, they seem to think, like the heretical quietists, that they can essentially bypass the ordinary, well-traveled way of sanctity and create a much quicker, convenient and extremely self-satisfying delusion.  They have the audacity to cite St. Theresa, et. al. who would most certainly have vigorously denounced their spiritual perversity.  They violate the First Commandment of the spiritual life -- do not seek anything extraordinary or you will surely become prey of the Devil.    
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 09:17:34 PM
Quote
It might be helpful to look at some differences between Catholic and non-Catholic Charismatic Worship.
Before becoming a part of the Renewal, I was invited to a Pentecostal Holiness service. It is allowable to attend worship services with our non-Catholic brothers and sisters providing we have first attended Mass. The person who invited me was surprised that I could merely observe what happened without being moved or involved. What I saw was a purely emotional service. Men and women were separated before the main service into "prayer closets." At the end of the service a young boy in ecstasy was baptized. There was no intellectual ascent to the baptism. I did fear the possibility of a Jim Jones type situation.
The focus was on the gifts as the sole criteria for whether or not a person was saved.

Fast forward to the personal crisis that I faced. Everything I did through my own efforts failed miserably. This led me to an Easter retreat. The retreat house was run by the Marians. Having attended a Jesus Day Conference (non Charismatic) in Chicago, I knew to let go and expect a miracle. That miracle occurred on Ascension Thursday. I experienced Pentecost. It is to this center that I drove weekly to participate in the nearest Charismatic Prayer group.
An objection has been raised that Charismatics open themselves to demonic influence. Yet every meeting begins with a prayer of protection against Satan. Is God not more powerful than the devil? Did Jesus himself not say "A house divided cannot stand" when accused of being Beelzebub?
While the charismatic gifts are manifested, it is not these gifts which are the focus of worship. It is the Giver of the gifts who receives our praise and thanksgiving. Earlier posts have described a typical Catholic Charismatic prayer meeting. I use the word "meeting" to differentiate from a liturgical service.

During this year's Easter homily, the priest talked about how we are an "Easter people," a "running people." He shared how as a child he would run home with good news and his feet would drag when the news was not so good. Mary ran when she found the tomb empty. Likewise, the Apostles ran to the empty tomb, Peter entering first. They ran to share what had happened When a person experiences Pentecost there is an overwhelming desire to "run and share the good news." I have already shared the witness of a priest who chose not to leave the priesthood as a result of his experience.

The Little Flowers of Saint Francis describes several instances in which a person "lay as if dead" for as long as three days. One instance described occurs while celebrating Mass. Saint Ignatius, in his autobiography, describes a sudden overwhelming desire to exult God as he leaves Paris.

A history of missionary efforts will show that it is the Catholic Church, the Universal Church, that was more likely to accept cultural differences and forms of worship than our non-Catholic counterparts. While the liturgical form of the Mass has evolved throughout history, its essential parts have not changed.
Even if a person attends Mass daily, it is not the only form of prayer in which Catholics take part. There are many forms of devotion including but not limited to litanies, novenas, and the rosary. Catholic Charismatics incorporate these forms into their individual prayer life. This prayer life may also include the Liturgy of the Hours and Lectio Divina. Regardless of where we are in our individual walk with Christ, we are called to submit our lives to God and to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Caminus on April 05, 2010, 09:21:33 PM
 :fryingpan:
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 05, 2010, 09:30:07 PM
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/chrsmat.htm (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/chrsmat.htm)

  Is the Charismatic Movement Catholic?


   Charismatism takes its origins from Protestant Pentecostalism in the United States and it has spread throughout the Catholic Church by the "Baptism in the Spirit".

This spiritual baptism is an innovation which the Charismatic renewal attempts to justify by claiming that with the sacraments the Catholic Church has not fulfilled all the abundance of the Gospels: "The over flowing and abundance of the New Testament should not be hastily assimilated to subsequent sacramental forms" (Fr Laurentin, Charismatic apologist, in his book Pentecôtisme chez les Catholiques, Beauchesne, 1975).  Now, the Catholic Church alone is the custodian of the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ.  It transmits infallibly the blessings of the Gospels in the only true Sacraments.  "My God, I firmly believe all the Truths which You have revealed to us and which You have taught us through Your Church, because You can neither deceive nor be deceived."  (Act of Faith)

Regarding the emphasis put on charisms:

1.  The presence of charisms is not sufficient to prove their divine origin:
 "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Many will say to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in Thy name, and cast out devils in Thy name, and done many miracles in Thy name?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity."  (Matt. VII: 21-23)
 "There are people whom the devil does not prevent in any way from doing much good because the good which they do serves him to deceive them."  (Fr. Lallemant, La Doctrine Spirituelle, Paris, 1882, p. 253)

2.  The Catholic Church is built on the supernatural virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity and not on charisms which are only lower gifts which must be controlled by the Church.
 "But be zealous of the better gifts.  And I show unto you yet a more excellent way."  (I Cor. XII :31)

 "Certain people value above all amongst the spiritual gifts, that of performing miracles, which are to be seen, forgetting that there are many others higher, which are hidden and because of that not liable to fall."  (St. John Climacus, Scala Paradisi, 26th degree, 78)
 "In comparison with Charity which is perfect, these gifts are of little consequence and those who are at that level can fall while those who have Charity do not fall.  I tell you that I have seen men who have received all the charisms and who have become participants in the Spirit and who nonetheless fell because they did not achieve perfect Charity".  (St. Macarius Magnus, IVth c., Spiritual Homilies, II, 27, 14)

Regarding its search of extraordinary signs and wonders:

1.  Risk of illusion:
 "And I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, 'God told me,' 'God answered me.'  Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution."  (St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29) (1)

2.  Possession by the devil:

 "Through the desire of accepting them one opens the door to the devil.  The devil can then deceive one by other communications expertly feigned and disguised as genuine.  In the words of the Apostle, he can transform himself into an 'angel of light' (II Cor. XI:14). (...)  Regardless of the cause of these apprehensions, it is always good for a man to reject them with closed eyes.  If he fails to do so, he will make room for those having a diabolical origin and empower the devil to impose his communications.  Not only this, but the diabolical representations will multiply while those from God will gradually cease, so that eventually all will come from the devil and none at all from God.  This has occurred with many incautious and uninstructed people."  (St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 11) (1)

Regarding its suspicion of the Church's Hierarchy:

 The Hierarchy of the Catholic Church is seen as a stifling human institution:
 "In so far as the ecclesiastical institution is constructed in the form of a hierarchical and closed juridical structure, in so far as it is organised, not according to the spirit of charism but by coopting clergy monopolising the resources, the knowledge, the power and the initiative in the Church, the Charismatic thrusts have been stifled."  (Fr Laurentin, Ibid.)  Now this hierarchy derives from God Himself: "He said therefore to them again: 'Peace be with you.  As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you.' " (John XX 21)  "And I say to thee: Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church.  And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."  (Matth. XVI 18)

Regarding its ecumenism:

 "Originating from Protestant families, I was baptised a Protestant.  Today, I know that God wants me to be a Protestant.  I have gradually felt that I must not separate myself from my Protestant Church but to bring myself closer to it."  (Testament of a young girl in the Bethany Community, in Revue Tychique, No. 52, p.10)
 "There will not be a real Judeo - Christian dialogue until the return of the Lord, except when Christians are truly Christian and the Jews truly Jewish."  (Brother Ephraim, Founder of the Community of the Beatitudes, in Cahiers du Renouveau,  No. 64, p.13)

Now, the Catholic Church teaches infallibly: 'Outside the Church there is no salvation'.
 "The Catholic Church alone keeps the true worship.  It is the Church of Truth, the home of the Faith, the temple of God; he who does not enter it or he who leaves it, loses all hope of life and salvation.  Do not let anyone hold a dogged view.  It is a question of life and of salvation.  If one does not watch out carefully and prudently, it is ruination and death."  (Lactantius; IIIrd c., Catholic apologist.)

Conclusion:

Charismatic Renewal is therefore not Catholic.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Caminus on April 05, 2010, 10:41:09 PM
I wonder if any of these gentlemen actually pray for an increase of the Gifts of the Holy Ghost, you know, the old ones like Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Prudence, Fear, Piety and/or Fortitude?  The fact that they don't pray for them, and wait to receive their plenitude by degrees, but instead, fancy themselves to call down at will gratis datae, and very poor imitiation at that, speaks volumes about their true spiritual state and understanding of the spiritual life in general.  Extraordinary grace is by definition sinful to desire.  Thus their "spirit filled" meetings are nothing but sin upon sin.  

Mentioning allegedly "good" things that are derived from this aberration is kind of like being a used car salesman.  They mention an apparent good, but fail to confront any problems.  Take for instance the priest who decided not to leave the priesthood because of an "experience."  So he didn't leave the priesthood, but what is the actual quality of the priest?  Does he stay only to further destroy the Church?  No one says because there is no real discernment.  These men do not take a second look at anything in their intense desire to justify themselves.  They are too infatuated with satisfying their own wills while pretending to call it an inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  They haven't even begun to travel the way of the Spirit, a way that would utterly dismay and confuse them.  But as was said, since they desire the extraordinary, the first sin of the spiritual life, they hand themselves over to the Devil in yet another of the myraid of ways in which he ensares souls.    
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 10:08:46 AM
Quote
I believe it is the duty of the Magisterium (i.e. the Pope together with the bishops) to interpret the documents of Vatican II in light of Tradition, not some armchair theologian.  Also, the likes of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are much more highly educated than yourself. Not to mention that it is their duty, not yours, to pastor Christ's flock here on earth. If they say that the Charismatic Renewal is okay, so long as it remains faithful to Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium and avoids the extremes and excesses that can befall any movement within the Church, then I think I'll trust them.

Secondly, the Mass prayed in English is perfectly valid, albeit the translation is faulty. It was approved by the bishops and by Rome. These are the people in charge of the Mass and other liturgies. While it is not recommended because it would not be a very pastoral move, they do have the right to change the Mass of their own particular Church.

Thirdly, the quotes from St. John of the Cross from that apologetics website are taken out of context. If you read the rest of the Ascent of Mount Carmel, and also the writings of Teresa of Avila, you'll see that St. John does admit the occurence of spiritual phenomena. What he discourages is seeking after the phenomena in themselves and building one's spiritual life around those phenomena. Teresa, on the other hand, seems to encourage seeking after the phenomena in her autobiography as well as the Interior Castle. However, she also admits that one needs to work very closely with a spiritual director. I'll admit that there can be a tendency among many charismatics to seek after the spiritual phenomena for their own sakes. But that is just one of the extremes that must be avoided. The Charismatic Renewal isn't all about speaking in tongues, resting in the spirit, prophecy, etc. It simply admits that these things can and do happen.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: sedetrad on April 06, 2010, 10:23:51 AM
These charismatics are insane. Stevus has used nothing but logic in his discussions and got nothing but illogical fluff in reply.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Belloc on April 06, 2010, 10:27:26 AM
I lived trough the Charismatic height in the 70's, even as part of confirmation, forced to go to a "Fire rally"-we were told at the end to give God hearty applause or something inane as that........it is merely a Catholic sounding shell on Pentecostalism...

God does not need a "shout out" or applause.he demands obediance and worship....
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Belloc on April 06, 2010, 10:34:06 AM
"Pro-Eucharist, Pro-Mary, Pro-Life, Pro-TRUE Marriage, Pro-NFP, Pro-ROME. You name it, they do it. They truly are an orthodox community who are charismatic."

if you bake a meat pie, and you use fresh veggies and meath that is 90% fresh, 10 rancid, is not the whole thing then ruined and un-eatable?

does not exorcists tell us that Satan will often times speak truth, but infuse lies and ambiguity?

"Evil always hides in ambiguity, evil always triumps through the sterngth of its splendid dupes" paraphrase quote from GK Chesterton
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Belloc on April 06, 2010, 10:39:29 AM
"The form of worship that they utilize is the Ordinary Form of the Mass as well as the Liturgy of the Hours. Where you get the idea that these are "Pentecostal" or "Protestant" is beyond me (unless of course you're calling the Ordinary Form itself into question). "

well, this guy is not even close to understanding the grave faults of the NO....apparently, he does not have Pentecostals in Canada or even really understands what it is about....

reminds me of arguing, in vain, with a fellow that would accept much of what Stevus aopponent would say, their minds are closed in connecting the dots to the subversion before and esp, at VII and afterwards....like Bishop Williamson has stated, some people do not have the capacity for reasoning....they get to a point nad cannot go further....he has stated "you cannot talk to a person unhinged, you cannot open or swing a door that is laying on the floor..their minds are unhinged"
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Caminus on April 06, 2010, 12:07:47 PM
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Quote
I believe it is the duty of the Magisterium (i.e. the Pope together with the bishops) to interpret the documents of Vatican II in light of Tradition, not some armchair theologian.  Also, the likes of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI are much more highly educated than yourself. Not to mention that it is their duty, not yours, to pastor Christ's flock here on earth. If they say that the Charismatic Renewal is okay, so long as it remains faithful to Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium and avoids the extremes and excesses that can befall any movement within the Church, then I think I'll trust them.

Secondly, the Mass prayed in English is perfectly valid, albeit the translation is faulty. It was approved by the bishops and by Rome. These are the people in charge of the Mass and other liturgies. While it is not recommended because it would not be a very pastoral move, they do have the right to change the Mass of their own particular Church.

Thirdly, the quotes from St. John of the Cross from that apologetics website are taken out of context. If you read the rest of the Ascent of Mount Carmel, and also the writings of Teresa of Avila, you'll see that St. John does admit the occurence of spiritual phenomena. What he discourages is seeking after the phenomena in themselves and building one's spiritual life around those phenomena. Teresa, on the other hand, seems to encourage seeking after the phenomena in her autobiography as well as the Interior Castle. However, she also admits that one needs to work very closely with a spiritual director. I'll admit that there can be a tendency among many charismatics to seek after the spiritual phenomena for their own sakes. But that is just one of the extremes that must be avoided. The Charismatic Renewal isn't all about speaking in tongues, resting in the spirit, prophecy, etc. It simply admits that these things can and do happen.


I just can't believe how stupid these people are.  Now who's an "arm chair" theologian?  Even a cursory reading of St. John of the Cross would suppress any such delusions, but nooo, they just keep right on going.  
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 06:28:00 PM
Apparently St. Pius X is a fan as well...

Quote
I am looking at the back of my St. Pius X holy card.
St. Pius X "inaugurated liturgical renewal and the restoration of frequent Communion from childhood...His overriding concern was to renew all things in Christ."

Each of us, regardless of where we are in our walk with Christ is called to holiness, to continued conversion. Rather than look at the Renewal as a movement, look instead at how the charisms, presuming they are real, might help your own walk with Christ.
It is not merely the past four popes who have given their blessing to the Charismatic Renewal, but the bishops as well who have given their ascent to the authenticity of the gifts, these special graces which come from God.
The OP asked the question, "What is the Charismatic Renewal?" I have limited my responses to the magisterial teaching of the Church as laid out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as well as my own experience.
One of the most common songs during a Charismatic prayer meeting is "Seek first the Kingdom of God."
St. Pius X gave "great impetus to biblical studies and the codification of Canon Law." "From St. Pius X we learn again that 'the folly of the cross,' simplicity of life, and humility of heart are still the highest wisdom and the indispensable conditions of a perfect Christian life, for they are the very source of all apostolic fruitfulness."
In light of the teachings of St. Pius X, I second the challenge laid out in "One Bread, One Body" to read the entire NT during this Easter Season. See what scripture itself says about the charisms.

I did not seek membership in a particular movement. As already stated, I would not return the gifts I have received even if I could. I knew full well the objections I would face when I accepted these gifts, the main reason I immediately made an appointment with my pastor to describe my experience. Receipt of the gifts did not change the outcome of the crisis I faced. Knowledge of God dwelling within my heart and being with me during every moment of my life gave me a Peace I would not otherwise have experienced during a very trying time. He gave me the strength to forgive, to move forward along the path He had chosen for my life.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: spouse of Jesus on April 06, 2010, 06:51:40 PM
  You can do nasty things and then ask why you get persecuted.  :fryingpan:
  There is prot church here which has secret weird members. Unlike other christians who have some defined freedoms, they always catch into some trouble and get smaller day by day. Their is a semi-dark and unadorned temple with a minister who says he is a jew by birth, His cloths are ridiculous and his sermons are as mysterious as his church. He speaks about The Holy Spirit as though He was a UFO or a secret agent that would come out of blue. Their title is 'England church' and now they allow dogs and homos.
Whatever they do, they say that The Spirit made them do that. If you ask them what they plan to do, they say that they are waiting for The Spirit to decide.
 I think it is very natural that the gov treats them like that.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 06:59:43 PM
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 07:16:47 PM
Response:

Quote
This is garbage from a radical group that claims the title of "Catholic" but refuses to submit to the teachings of Vatican 2 (an Ecumenical council which bears the mark of infallibility), and as a radical site that does not adhere to the Magisterium, must be rejected with respect to their analysis of authentic Catholic teaching.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 07:21:41 PM
Quote
The legitimate Charismatic Renewal does NOT display supernatural gifts in the context of the Mass.  Why do Traditionalists reject the Holy Spirit and his gifts?
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 07:23:46 PM
My response:

1.) What radical group?

2.) Why are they not Catholic?

3.) What teachings of VCII do they refuse to submit to?
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 07:24:38 PM
Also:

What in this article is "garbage"? If it is such trash, surely it can be easily refuted.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 07:34:51 PM
Quote
1) they do not identify themselves, but they are obviously radicals by quick perusal of the documents on their site.

2) They reject that Vatican 2 is infallible

3) that have an entire article dedicated to the "errors" of Vatican 2.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 07:36:45 PM
Reply:

1.) Judge not.

2.) It wasn't infallible.

3.) VCII was not infallible and therefore could err. In addition "errors" could refer to as yet uncorrected beliefs some hold in interpreting the VCII documents.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Alexandria on April 06, 2010, 07:59:48 PM
The bottom line with these people is this:  DON'T THROW YOUR PEARLS BEFORE SWINE.

Their religion began with Vatican II.  
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 08:04:00 PM
Quote
If he speaks against what the Popes and Magisterium have approved, then yes, it is a waste of my time.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 09:51:00 PM
Quote
I can answer this question with a resounding yes. Charismatics do pray for an increase in Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Prudence, Fear of the Lord, Piety, and Fortitude (or perseverance).
We ask for the wisdom needed in a given situation and the knowledge of God's Will in our life.
Once when I received insight into a particular situation, I protested "This is not what I asked" only to find in my journal where I had asked for understanding.
We learn from experience that when we ask for patience, God might give us the opportunity to learn patience.
When facing a difficult situation, a friend used to quip "one more lap around the desert." We all needs God's strength to persevere, to remain strong in Faith when that faith is being tested.
We pray for healing knowing that not all healing is instantaneous. I often follow praying the rosary with the Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary which ends with a prayer for perpetual health of mind and body.
We understand Fear of the Lord not in terms of being afraid. "God is Love and he who abides in Love abides in God and God in him." Rather we understand this "fear" as reverence and awe. Our God is an awesome God.
I will repeat what I wrote in an earlier post about a priest who asked the question "How big is God?" He shared the response of a young boy about my age at the time. "God is so big the heavens cannot contain Him and so small He fits in each one of our hearts." The more we experience God within our hearts, the greater our awareness becomes of a God "the heavens cannot contain" and how insignificant we really are and the love He has for each one of us.

Again, the mission of the last group to which I belonged stateside was intercessory prayer. The prayers were not merely for ourselves but for the parish, the community, and the country. We commonly prayed for an end to abortion and the safe return of our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. Some members would stand silent vigil at the local abortion clinic. We prayed for families in crisis and parish members in need of healing. We prayed for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon the city and country. We prayed that family members who had left the Catholic Church might return.

Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Caminus on April 06, 2010, 10:27:23 PM
Quote
I can answer this question with a resounding yes.


Then why do we not only see no evidence of these gifts, but even obstinate sinning against them?  It is clear from your explanation that you do not even understand the nature of each gift.  The entire point is that you are confusing sensuality with spirituality and claiming it is the Holy Spirit.  This entire charade in an exercise of self-will in the name of doing God's will.  You do not see the glaring egoism involved.  And because you seek the extraordinary, you are or will be soon a special victim of the Devil who tolerates much good in order to inject a small amount of poison.  You have no idea what you are dealing with.
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: Caminus on April 06, 2010, 10:38:54 PM
Quote
The more we experience God within our hearts, the greater our awareness becomes of a God "the heavens cannot contain" and how insignificant we really are and the love He has for each one of us.


That which you think is "experiencing" God in your heart is the same "experience" that a man gets in riding a roller coaster or getting himself hyped up to play a sport.  It's not God, it's yourself.  Even if you did experience sensory delight in prayer, this is but the milk of an infant in the spiritual life.  To claim that more of this is indicative of our greater union with God is foolish.  Your entire conception of the spiritual life is radically opposed to the spiritual masters.  I must say that I am not surprised given the universal disorientation of souls.  I am sure you are very sincere in your beliefs, but they are untested, unwise and extraordinarily dangerous.  It's not as if the ordinary way of sanctity is negotiable, it's general outlines are morally necessary to reach union with God.  A denial of this is a denial of our true spiritual condition.  
Title: Charismatic Renewal Defended
Post by: stevusmagnus on April 06, 2010, 11:12:43 PM
Caminus,

I love your answers.

You'd get banned from CAF within a week!  :laugh1: