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Author Topic: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview  (Read 13191 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
« Reply #105 on: July 08, 2024, 05:50:01 PM »
Every ordination or confirmation (or any act specific to a bishop) that Vigano did, during his "doubtful" days, is also doubtful.  This is a HUGE problem.  All these people need to get conditionally-ordained and conditionally-confirmed. 

This is not a Vigano-centric issue.  It doesn't only affect him.  It affects hundreds or thousands of people.

You're adding the dimension of time into it. Yes, anything before the date of his conditional consecration should be treated as doubtful, that is to say assumed invalid. People can do basic math. But only Trads (those awake to the grave problems in the Conciliar Church) are aware of this problem -- or accept it as a problem.

But as of today, +Vigano is both publicly known as a bishop, AND objectively IS a bishop (no more doubt) because he was conditionally consecrated.

The only issue would be if someone refused to trust the several people who confirmed this fact. Including Vigano himself, who didn't deny that a conditional consecration was done by +Williamson. But that's their problem. If they won't trust Vigano about this, why come to him for the Sacraments anyhow? It rings hollow to me, like a bad excuse. They'll just have to find another bishop to confirm them or give them Holy Oils I guess.

But most people can trust to the point we take things on human faith every day. Do you personally test *everything* you are told or taught by anyone? Society, including the Church, can't function if we can't trust anyone about anything. If we assume everything we get second or third-hand is a lie, you can't even live. Every food you buy might be poisoned, etc. Every letter you receive is a forgery, every post is written by a Fed, etc.

Online Pax Vobis

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Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
« Reply #106 on: July 08, 2024, 05:59:47 PM »
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You're adding the dimension of time into it. Yes, anything before the date of his conditional consecration should be treated as doubtful, that is to say assumed invalid.
Agree.

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But as of today, +Vigano is both publicly known as a bishop,
Public, only in the sense that *some* Trads know (mostly on this site).  I won't consider it public until +Vigano puts out an email/docuмent about it.  Or +W sends out an email.

What about the conciliar/indulters whom +Vigano served for most of his apostolic life?  They don't need to know that his actions are invalid?  They don't need to know that the new sacraments are doubtful and (practically) invalid?  Yes, they need to know and they deserve to know.
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AND objectively IS a bishop (no more doubt) because he was conditionally consecrated.
Yes, and now, as a real bishop, he needs to come to terms with his "doubtful bishop" period.  He has to make amends, in a sense.  He OWES these people an explanation, that their sacraments are bunk.

If he doesn't do this, then he's only thinking of himself.  That's a major red flag.  I'll give it some time, but mark this down.

If you can't admit that this is an issue, then y'all have a problem too.  Catholic charity demands that a cleric fix past mistakes as best he can.  The first step is admitting there's a problem.


Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
« Reply #107 on: July 08, 2024, 06:37:14 PM »
   The principle of graduality is a classic tool of the modernists. Annibale Bugnini sold it to Pope Pius XII; and as a consequence, eventually all of the rites of the Sacraments, not only the Mass, have been gradually replaced by the new, illicit ones. Pope Paul VI, riding on the wave of the Pastoral Council, altered the Sacrament of Order first. He did this so that the new Conciliar sect would have a different hierarchy, ordained into the new rite with an alternative understanding of priesthood and episcopacy. Since the sacred had to be eliminated, the rite of episcopal consecration was invalidated in its essential-for-validity form and the intention of the minister. In a more deceptive way, the same was done to the ordination of a priest. As a result, today we see a different entity from The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

   For a cleric to be a part of the Church, he has to cross the threshold of the rite of Holy Order.  As a general rule, the rite of Baptism bestows upon a Catholic the rights and privileges associated with membership in the Church. Fr. Vigano enjoyed the rights and privileges of the Roman Rite until his invalid "consecration" to the episcopacy in the rite to which he was artificially introduced.  He crossed the threshold into the Conciliar sect. He lived in the Matrix of the New Advent. By the grace of God, he realized what was happening to him before he was called to give the testimony of his life.  Now he has a chance to repent, confess, and repair what is in his power. The longer he waits with his announcement, the higher the possibility of the souls affected by him (the Pope, bishops, priests, and faithful) arriving at their judgement day without being fortified by the Sacraments of the Church.

 Yes, graduality is a classic modernist method...

Offline Matthew

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Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
« Reply #108 on: July 08, 2024, 07:12:57 PM »
The only other thing I can add to this discussion is the subject of "Trad Smacking".

In Flat Earth circles, there's the concept of "Flat Smacking" where you basically try to convince people about Flat Earth, shoot holes in the Globe paradigm, try to wake people up -- you get the idea. It's basically missionary activity but highly visible, attention-getting, proactive, and at times aggressive, rather than just setting up a table and answering questions from people who walk up to them.

Basically it's about shoving a "red pill" down peoples' throats. Some argue that's a good work. Others argue it's a waste of time.

Apply this to the Crisis in the Church. Enter "Trad Smacking"

Why wouldn't we want to Trad Smack everyone in the Novus Ordo? They're ALL receiving doubtful or invalid sacraments, from priests who have NOT been conditionally ordained after their dubious ordination, and attending a doubtful Rite of Mass.

What I'm trying to say is, why limit your compassion to +Vigano's past flock? Why not take it upon yourself as an obligation to Trad Smack 24/7? If you get kicked out of one church, move on to the next. You will not run out of churches before the Son of Man returns.

Now some might say it would be casting pearls before swine, that many aren't disposed to the Truth, that it takes grace to see the truth, etc. but at least it's a legitimate discussion.

My point: who, precisely, are we OBLIGATED to "Trad Smack"? When does it become an obligation, rather than a question of personality, opinion, etc? After all, there is a variety of opinion as to how much good it does. And some personality types "enjoy" such Smacking activity more than others.

Re: Bp? Vigano: Saul or Paul? Fr. McKenna Interview
« Reply #109 on: July 08, 2024, 07:39:56 PM »
This morning, I got cat smacked for failure to pour the kitty nibbles into the bowl fast enough!  :laugh2::laugh1: