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Author Topic: Benedict nearing death?  (Read 11531 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Benedict nearing death?
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2022, 02:29:21 PM »
No, his death would not resolve that, according to Ann: "Ontological realities cannot be CHANGED in retrospect." meaning Jorge was never pope and cannot be retrospectively elected, a new conclave would have to be invoked. Fr, Kramer would take the argument a step further and say that Jorge is a public manifest heretic and is an "incapable subject" of being pope, so Jorge could not validly be elected pope should the Cardinals decide to attempt to elect Jorge as pope.

:facepalm:  That buffoon who knows no theology at all spouting off about "ontological realities"? :facepalm:

Top Catholic theologians have proposed the notion of "convalidation", and it has nothing to do with ontology but with the nature of papal elections.  In essence a papal election is a designation by the Church of the candidate that the Church intends for God (for Our Lord) to imbue the formal papal authority on.  In the wake of a defective papal election, the Church in univesally accepting the candidate effectively shows the will for Our Lord to imbue the man with papal authority.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Benedict nearing death?
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2022, 02:31:24 PM »
Here is Tony La Rosa's argument objecting to being classified as a "Sedevacantist" if Pope Benidict dies before Jorge:

"The term “Sedevacantist” did not exist before Vatican II.  It is a term applied to those who hold that the Chair of St. Peter has been vacant since 1958 due to the alleged heresies of the conciliar popes.  If Benedict XVI dies first, I will not automatically become a “Sedevacantist”, the term as applied above.  Furthermore, even if Jorge Bergoglio was a saintly man, he would still be an antipope because he was invalidly elected.  Therefore, I don’t need the argument of “heresy” to defend my position.  If Benedict XVI dies, we will simply be in a period of “sedevacante”, as we were between the reigns of Pope Pius X and Pope Benedict XV.  If Jorge Bergoglio dies first, will those who accept him as pope become “Sedevacantists”?"

I Will Not Turn into a Sedevacantist if Benedict XVI Dies before Jorge Bergoglio – Ecclesia Militans


Thus, he is correct; if the term "Sedevacanstist" is restricted to those who believe the Chair of Peter is vacant since the death of Pius XII. Then in that case, those who hold Pope Benedict as the current Pope will not be considered Sedevacantist.

Just idiotic semantics.  He defines "sedevacantist" as someone who holds that the See has been vacant since 1958, while the term could (and here would be) just applied to mean that if Benny die, that he would hold the See to be vacant rather than occupied by Bergoglio.

Please stop posting stupidity.

Do we need to play the game and rephrase the question.  So, Tony, if Benny dies, would you hold that Bergoglio would become the pope or would you hold the See to be empty?


Re: Benedict nearing death?
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2022, 02:32:07 PM »
This is hilarious.

According to Mr. LaRosa, Ibranyi (who believes the last 102 pope have been antipopes) would not qualify as a sedevacantist either.

Nor would those who believe John XXIII was a true pope, but Paul VI through Francis weren’t, be considered sedevacantists.

Only those who say the chair has been empty since 1958 qualify (much to the chagrin of those who identify as sedevacantists with other start dates).

Sounds to me like Mr. LaRosa is having difficulty coming to terms with the inevitable logic of his position:

If you believe the man claiming to be pope is an antipope, and furthermore, that nobody else is currently pope, you are by definition sedevacantist (as every sedevacantist will attest).

That various sedevacantists have different start dates for their alleged “interregnums” is an entirely irrelevant detail.
What’s your definition of Sedevacantist?

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Benedict nearing death?
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2022, 02:35:07 PM »
This is hilarious.

According to Mr. LaRosa, Ibranyi (who believes the last 102 pope have been antipopes) would not qualify as a sedevacantist either.

Nor would those who believe John XXIII was a true pope, but Paul VI through Francis weren’t, be considered sedevacantists.

Only those who say the chair has been empty since 1958 qualify (much to the chagrin of those who identify as sedevacantists with other start dates).

Sounds to me like Mr. LaRosa is having difficulty coming to terms with the inevitable logic of his position:

If you believe the man claiming to be pope is an antipope, and furthermore, that nobody else is currently pope, you are by definition sedevacantist (as every sedevacantist will attest).

That various sedevacantists have different start dates for their alleged “interregnums” is an entirely irrelevant detail.

You beat me to it.  It's just stupid semantic games.  He simply defines the term "sedevacantist" very narrowly and then rejects his own narrow definition of the term.  What is obviously mean is:  "If Benny dies before Jorge, would you consider the See to be vacant rather than occupied by Jorge?"

Who are these idiots issuing theological pontifications?  Do any of them have 5 minutes of training in Catholic Theology or even in Scholastic Logic?

Re: Benedict nearing death?
« Reply #49 on: December 29, 2022, 02:42:10 PM »
1.)  Stop citing that crackpot Barnhardt as if she were some theologian. 

2.) your caps, italics, red print, and citation of Barnhardt as your theological authority are pathetic.
1.) Your original question was " Bennyvacantists believe in Universal Acceptance in principle.", all I did was quote a known "Bennyvacntists" to give an example of their understanding of Universal Acceptance to see whether or not if they believe in UA in principle or practice. Next time be more specific on who I am allowed to quote within the subject group.

2.) Those are not my "caps, italics, red print, etc." All I did was cut and paste from Ann's article. I was not aware I had to take the time to reformat text that are cut and pasted from someone else. I was not aware you had restriction in participating in CathInfo.