Author Topic: Baptism Again? (Read 4357 times)

MyrnaM · « **Reply #15 on:** August 04, 2013, 01:04:22 PM »

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

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MyrnaM said:

All you have to do is google the words "baptism of desire" and you can take your pick as to what you want to read. However, I will look through my home library here to see if I can find a better easy to understand source tomorrow.

Are you implying my inferior intellect might not be able to understand the amazingly "orthodox" and "complex" teachings of BOD through online Google searches. LOL

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MyrnaM said:

Not saying we know everything that God would do, but since we do know He is All mercy and just, what do you think matters to Him.

God has revealed through His Church what matters, that people are Baptized in order to remove their original sin and become members of His Church. The person that does not have the use of reason has not the requirements of someone who has the use of reason.

My point was that people that believe in BOD hold to all kinds of different variations. If you claim that it only applies to when someone dies, where is that taught infallibly.

I am not implying anything about your intellect, sorry if it sounded such. I have my own problems. What I am saying is, and to answer Tiffany as well, baptism of desire is for people who are planning to be baptized but for some reason they, in the past were martyred or an unforeseen accident happens before the baptism actually happens. God's grace is a gift, and He gives it to whoever He wishes at times. He knows His own.

The more I think about this subject, it seems that people who insist there is no such a thing as BOD, deny the mercy of God. They explain it away, by saying God knows you are going to die and He will provide what is necessary, and He does, I agree, it's called BOD. Everyone who dies in the State of Grace is united to the Church.

The reason BOD when applied after death, is because God knows His own.

Another person who claims to say he desires baptism but does nothing about it, just keeps putting if off, and passes up opportunity after opportunity to be baptized with water and does absolutely nothing about it, but talk about it, really does not have a desire at all. Just lip service. God can not be mocked. He knows.

That is why it is not up to us to say, who is and who is not a member of the Church, that is up to God, and Him alone.

Cathedra · « **Reply #16 on:** August 04, 2013, 02:22:50 PM »

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

This is amazing. You claim that the dimonds are hateful but your language is extremely hateful sounding. You can say whatever you want.

Not even close to them actually.

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

It's illogical to say the saints are automatically heretics just because they make errors, the fact is that they were not obstinate in them like the supporters of bod now days., or else they wouldn't be saints.

Thank you for admitting you just have no response.

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

Where is the declaration stating that st Thomas is a heretic for denying the immaculate conception?

This seems like desperation. Even your buddies the Dimonds answer this.

It wasn't defined dogma by then of course.

Didn't you know?

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

You are too blind to see that you are wrong.

Wrong about what?

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

All You can do is sit there and lie.

Please show me where I lied, otherwise you are the one guilty of breaking the 8th commandment.

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

I told you that they didn't give me my beliefs, they only showed me where to go to back them up.

I don't know how else to explain this to you.

They are the ONLY ONES who say that BOD/BOB are heretical.

You believe they are heretical.

Ergo, you got your belief from them.

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

Your hatred of the BROTHERS is so obvious it's funny almost.

This is a blatant lie because they are not real monks nor "brothers". Only biological brothers lol. They break the Holy Rule of St. Benedict on several places and they don't even speak or behave like real monks at all. It's possible they don't even pray the monastic breviary.

They are Sarabaites, according to the Holy Rule of St. Benedict. Go look up what those are.

But you don't care about this and mindlessly keep on asserting they're monks when they're not. That's lying, you know, a sin.

And no i don't hate them. I wish they would convert and stop being hypocrites because they give a bad name to sedevacantism.

Quote from: Isaac Jogues

If you want to discuss the point of this thread that's fine, otherwise I am going to ignore you because all you do is spout your hatred for Catholics. This is going to be fun watching you talk to the wall!

Yeah since you don't care for the truth and you have nothing else to say you can only cowardly threaten to ignore me, like the coward that you are, instead of dealing with the facts. What a pathetic wimp.

And stop referring to the Dimonds as Catholics because THEY ARE NOT. They are schismatics and heretics. By calling them Catholics you lie and sin.

It seems the only one who "sits there and lies" is you buddy.

I answer you point-by-point and in detail, and you don't, and you still call me a liar.

Frances · « **Reply #17 on:** August 04, 2013, 02:44:22 PM »

How and when did you "receive the baptism of desire"??? This is imputed by God AT DEATH in exceptional cases. For example, you are a catechumen with plans to be baptized on a certain date and you die suddenly, before then. Or, you are truly invincibly ignorant of the Catholic religion. Or you desire with all your heart, to be baptized, but you are in solitary confinement in a North Korean prison and there is nobody to baptize you.
A rule is never made of an exception. If you have not been properly baptized, it is a state of mortal sin to know the necessity and yet rely on God accepting you as having had the proper desire. Get to a priest at once! Why play with your salvation?

MyrnaM · « **Reply #18 on:** August 04, 2013, 04:33:13 PM »

Thank you Frances

Also from my home library:

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The above book is dated 1939

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bowler · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2013, 08:48:40 PM »

Quote from: MyrnaM

Quote from: bowler
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Quote from: MyrnaM
if circuмstances prevent the sacrament due to no fault of the unbaptized person, and death comes unexpected there's great hope the person received justification because of his/her desire and plan to receive the sacrament. [/u]

So, God predestines some people to receive the grace of justification before baptism, but to die before they can receive actual baptism?

St. Augustine: “If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.’ There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief.” (On the Soul and Its Origin 3, 13)

Myrna responded: God allows a person justification if they are going to receive the Sacrament but die before that happens, it is simple as that.

Bowler answers: St. Augustine is telling us that no one dies unless God takes them. That God before the beginning of time predestined everything that would happen to that person. For your system to work, you have to eliminate God from part two, the "unexpected death". First, God predestined the person to be justified before he was baptized, but then, either God predestines people to die before receiving the sacrament and go to heaven, or else God predestined the person to die before he received baptism so that the person would not suffer greater torments in hell (the baptized who end up in hell suffer the greatest torments).

For BOD to work, God must have predestined people to be justified and die without being baptized and still go to heaven, God would have had to do it "on purpose", and not that a person died "by accident".

I don't know of any theologian who taught that God predestines some people to die without baptism and still go to heaven. That is what St. Augustine is saying.

Do you understand what St. Augustine is saying?

“If you wish to be a Catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination"

bowler, define predestination as you understand it.

I added my question to you, that you omitted when you asked me to define predestination. Please answer my question. I doubt that you do not know what predestination is, so please answer my question.