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Offline Isaac Jogues

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Baptism Again?
« on: August 03, 2013, 08:43:23 PM »
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  • Is it necessary to be baptized again or conditionally baptized after receiving a "baptism of desire"?
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 09:49:36 PM »
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  • Baptism of desire is only efficacious if you die.  In other words it has no result at all unless you die, BOD is not a sacrament.  Everyone needs Baptism of water, the sacrament.  BOD/BOB are only effective out of necessity, when a person is planning on being baptized or has the desire to be; because of circumstances beyond their control they were not able to receive the sacrament before their unexpected death.  

    Not even conditionally baptized, but the administration of baptism is a must.  

    The ideal is the SACRAMENT of baptism.  


    Offline StCeciliasGirl

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 11:04:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Is it necessary to be baptized again or conditionally baptized after receiving a "baptism of desire"?


    Seriously?

    We confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. And it's gotta be water.
    Legem credendi, lex statuit supplicandi

    +JMJ

    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 11:09:38 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Baptism of desire is only efficacious if you die.  In other words it has no result at all unless you die, BOD is not a sacrament.  Everyone needs Baptism of water, the sacrament.  BOD/BOB are only effective out of necessity, when a person is planning on being baptized or has the desire to be; because of circumstances beyond their control they were not able to receive the sacrament before their unexpected death.  

    Not even conditionally baptized, but the administration of baptism is a must.  

    The ideal is the SACRAMENT of baptism.  


    Can you please direct us to the infallible teaching that BOD only applies if the person dies.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 11:38:03 PM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Quote from: MyrnaM
    Baptism of desire is only efficacious if you die.  In other words it has no result at all unless you die, BOD is not a sacrament.  Everyone needs Baptism of water, the sacrament.  BOD/BOB are only effective out of necessity, when a person is planning on being baptized or has the desire to be; because of circumstances beyond their control they were not able to receive the sacrament before their unexpected death.  

    Not even conditionally baptized, but the administration of baptism is a must.  

    The ideal is the SACRAMENT of baptism.  


    Can you please direct us to the infallible teaching that BOD only applies if the person dies.


    All you have to do is google the words "baptism of desire" and you can take your pick as to what you want to read.  However, I will look through my home library here to see if I can find a better easy to understand source tomorrow.

    In the meantime, think about this:  Imagine in the eyes of God, what do you think He thinks about...
      A baby being water baptized, which BTW is the Ideal, but just for the sake of reasoning.
    1.  A baby with NO desire to be baptized, but is water baptised.

    2.  Another person who has reached the age of reason with the desire to be baptized but just hasn't done it yet.

    They both die suddenly.  God who is all merciful, and just, what would He do?

    Not saying we know everything that  God would do, but since we do know He is All mercy and just, what do you think matters to Him.  


    Offline Cathedra

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 01:39:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Is it necessary to be baptized again or conditionally baptized after receiving a "baptism of desire"?


    It is necessary for you to answer the following:

    Can you show me any Catholic of repute, saying that BOD/BOB are heretical?

    And just so you know i have recently changed my stance on this issue.

    Whatever may be decided later by a competent authority on the status of the baptisms doesn't allow you or anyone else in the meantime to say they are heretical, for the Dimonds (the ones where you get your beliefs and the ones who came up with this) are no authority whatsoever.

    Sure they may well turn out to be false, but you cross the line in saying they are heretical and are guilty of formal schism.

    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #6 on: August 04, 2013, 03:06:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Cathedra
    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Is it necessary to be baptized again or conditionally baptized after receiving a "baptism of desire"?


    It is necessary for you to answer the following:

    Can you show me any Catholic of repute, saying that BOD/BOB are heretical?

    And just so you know i have recently changed my stance on this issue.

    Whatever may be decided later by a competent authority on the status of the baptisms doesn't allow you or anyone else in the meantime to say they are heretical, for the Dimonds (the ones where you get your beliefs and the ones who came up with this) are no authority whatsoever.

    Sure they may well turn out to be false, but you cross the line in saying they are heretical and are guilty of formal schism.


    First, The myriad of solemn declarations Which state that there is no salvation outside the church, That Sacramental baptism is necessary to become a member Of the church or to have Original Sin removed, Or that sacramental baptism is necessary to be justified. Any teaching contrary to these dogmas is heresy. Just as speaking contrary to the formula for the Blessed Trinity is heresy etc. The church does not need to specifically condemn baptism of desire because it is implicitly done so through the dogmatic definitions of the church. Therefore anyone who obstinately denies that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation is condemned.

    Second, Although I am glad that you have changed your position to a certain degree, I would not be surprised if you changed it again.

    Third, Contrary to what you say the dimond brothers did not give me my beliefs. Even when I was in the Vatican II church I always believed that there was no salvation outside the church and that baptism was absolutely necessary. I also did not believe that NFP was licit or moral for a Catholic to do. Their teaching on this was what led me to their site and caused my conversion to the traditional Catholic Church. I had always known that there was something wrong with that "church" and that the traditional teachings did not add up with what the "church" was teaching
    now. So I don't care what you say about the diamond brothers because you can only attack them Personally and not refute what they say.

    Last, I would never listen to anything you say because the last time I talk to you you told me that you did not even believe that John 3:5 is literal even though the church clearly teaches that it is.Clearly you don't even know what Catholic teaching is so how are you qualified to say that the dimond brothers don't know either.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline Cathedra

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #7 on: August 04, 2013, 03:33:10 AM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    First, The myriad of solemn declarations Which state that there is no salvation outside the church, That Sacramental baptism is necessary to become a member Of the church or to have Original Sin removed, Or that sacramental baptism is necessary to be justified. Any teaching contrary to these dogmas is heresy. Just as speaking contrary to the formula for the Blessed Trinity is heresy etc. The church does not need to specifically condemn baptism of desire because it is implicitly done so through the dogmatic definitions of the church. Therefore anyone who obstinately denies that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation is condemned.


    This is very nice, but you didn't answer the question.

    And if you are to be consistent and logical with this, then you have to anathematize all the Saints that ever taught BOD/BOB, for how can they possibly plead "ignorance" or "good will" on this issue, them being bright theologians who knew Catholic teaching inside-out?

    If all you can say is, which is actually what the Dimonds say, "oh they were just erring in good faith. No biggie."

    Well then, how do you know this? How do you know they "didn't know" they were contradicting clear infallible dogmatic teaching? You think they didn't read what they taught against, or carefully considered the matter?

    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Third, Contrary to what you say the dimond brothers did not give me my beliefs.


    You bet they did.

    I told you it is a fact that they are the only ones that went so far as to say that BOD/BOB are heretical.

    Which is why i asked you to show me anyone of repute who said this. But of course you can't because they are the only ones who say this. Can it be any more clear?

    Saying they may be false and erroneous is one thing, but saying they are heretical quite another and demonstrates rashness because logically you would have to say all the ones who taught them were heretics, but like a hypocrite they (you) don't.

    They (you) want to have their (your) cake and eat it to.

    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    So I don't care what you say about the diamond brothers because you can only attack them Personally and not refute what they say.


    Yeah you don't care they are schismatics and phonies who are not even real monks who sneak in in cognito dressed as civilians to a Vatican II "mass" una cum Bergoglio the talking apostate, the very man they condemn as antipope (CAN YOU SAY HYPOCRITES OF THE YEAR?) because you just like what they say, regardless if whether it's true or not.

    And just what is it that "i can't refute" of what they say? I already told you i agree you need to be sacramentally baptized, which they claim too, so what are you talking about?

    Nothing.

    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Last, I would never listen to anything you say because the last time I talk to you you told me that you did not even believe that John 3:5 is literal even though the church clearly teaches that it is. Clearly you don't even know what Catholic teaching is so how are you qualified to say that the dimond brothers don't know either.


    Gee whiz you really need to take them off the pedestal you have them in.

    Will they vouch for you when you appear in front of the Judgment Seat of Christ?

    These people are filled with hate and just the way they speak is not Catholic. Just listen to any of their debates. Oh wait you already have. So that means you fully endorse their non-Catholic atittude.


    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #8 on: August 04, 2013, 04:10:07 AM »
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  • This is amazing. You claim that the dimonds are hateful but your language is extremely hateful sounding. You can say whatever you want.
    It's illogical to say the saints are automatically heretics just because they make errors, the fact is that they were not obstinate in them like the supporters of bod now days., or else they wouldn't be saints.
    Where is the declaration stating that st Thomas is a heretic for denying the immaculate conception? You are too blind to see that you are wrong.
     All You can do is sit there and lie. I told you that they didn't give me my beliefs, they only showed me where to go to back them up. Your hatred of the BROTHERS is so obvious it's funny almost.

    If you want to discuss the point of this thread that's fine, otherwise I am going to ignore you because all you do is spout your hatred for Catholics.
    This is going to be fun watching you talk to the wall!
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline bowler

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #9 on: August 04, 2013, 05:58:51 AM »
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    Offline bowler

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #10 on: August 04, 2013, 06:09:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM

    2.  Another person who has reached the age of reason with the desire to be baptized but just hasn't done it yet.

    They both die suddenly.  God who is all merciful, and just, what would He do?


    Alternative answers (other than your BOD):

    God would not take the person's life before God sent anyone to baptize the person. God would have had the person baptized unknowingly as a infant by his nurse. God would have had any passerby baptize the person who died  suddenly on his way to his catechism class. God controls time, and God had all of time and people to get the person baptized in water without having to go through catechism and an entire baptism ceremony.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #11 on: August 04, 2013, 07:49:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: MyrnaM

    2.  Another person who has reached the age of reason with the desire to be baptized but just hasn't done it yet.

    They both die suddenly.  God who is all merciful, and just, what would He do?


    Alternative answers (other than your BOD):

    God would not take the person's life before God sent anyone to baptize the person. God would have had the person baptized unknowingly as a infant by his nurse. God would have had any passerby baptize the person who died  suddenly on his way to his catechism class. God controls time, and God had all of time and people to get the person baptized in water without having to go through catechism and an entire baptism ceremony.


    Yes, yes and He also allows BOD as the church teaches, look it up in any Catholic book that speaks of baptism.  

    Offline Stubborn

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #12 on: August 04, 2013, 10:29:35 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: MyrnaM

    2.  Another person who has reached the age of reason with the desire to be baptized but just hasn't done it yet.

    They both die suddenly.  God who is all merciful, and just, what would He do?


    Alternative answers (other than your BOD):

    God would not take the person's life before God sent anyone to baptize the person. God would have had the person baptized unknowingly as a infant by his nurse. God would have had any passerby baptize the person who died  suddenly on his way to his catechism class. God controls time, and God had all of time and people to get the person baptized in water without having to go through catechism and an entire baptism ceremony.


    Yes, yes and He also allows BOD as the church teaches, look it up in any Catholic book that speaks of baptism.  



      Here is the original catechism which came directly out of Trent which speaks of baptism quite explicitly and in great detail - please look it up yourself and post what this catechism teaches about a BOD.
    For a small gain they travel far; for eternal life many will scarcely lift a foot from the ground. - Thomas A Kempis

    Offline Tiffany

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 10:40:06 AM »
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  • If someone is alive, and they want to be baptized, and they have the opportunity, why wouldn't they be? I'm not catching on here.

    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    Baptism Again?
    « Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 10:53:32 AM »
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  • Quote
    MyrnaM said:

    All you have to do is google the words "baptism of desire" and you can take your pick as to what you want to read.  However, I will look through my home library here to see if I can find a better easy to understand source tomorrow.


    Are you implying my inferior intellect might not be able to understand the amazingly "orthodox" and "complex" teachings of BOD through online Google searches. LOL

    Quote
    MyrnaM said:

    Not saying we know everything that  God would do, but since we do know He is All mercy and just, what do you think matters to Him.  


    God has revealed through His Church what matters, that people are Baptized in order to remove their original sin and become members of His Church. The person that does not have the use of reason has not the requirements of someone who has the use of reason.

    My point was that people that believe in BOD hold to all kinds of different variations. If you claim that it only applies to when someone dies, where is that taught infallibly.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

     

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