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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 9429 times)

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2020, 09:38:46 AM »
The reason you do not see any difference LeDeg, is because your conclusion in and of itself being improper, bespeaks of no difference.

As my sig says: The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

As such, the question should be;
At what point may we disobey God in order to obey the pope, who is a man? 60 years? 100 years? Or 500 years? The answer is of course, never.

The whole sede mindset, their lex credendi, hinges on the idea that the pope is supposed to be something almost celestial, at least something more than a man who is incapable of doing what man is capable of doing - combined with the idea that their knowledge of his sins (of heresy, apostasy etc.) authorizes and qualifies them to decide to dethrone him, to deprive him of his office, which is precisely what they have decided to do. They believe to do this is true, even courageous Catholicism.  

As faithful Catholics in regards to the pope, it is our duty to pray daily for the pope, always has been, always will be. As recent history proves, Catholics can keep the faith and grow in it, and there is nothing to stop us from even becoming great saints, even though the popes and hierarchy are blatantly heretical, provided that through it all we adhere to the highest principle in the Church. It really is not at all complicated.

*That* is the Church's indefectibility working.
Condemn the hierarchy as heretical and make up our own minds regarding matters of faith. Not Protestant at all...

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2020, 09:50:13 AM »
A Church without Ordinary Jurisdiction is a non-Apostolic Church. Consequently, it is not the Catholic Church at all. Notice, Vatican I.

"3. So then, just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39], even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in his Church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/first-vatican-council-1505 In just the same way as the Lord appointed Apostles whom He chose out of the world, in like manner it was His will that there should be shepherds and teachers who are sent till the end of time.

This does not mean that time ended in 1965. It means there will never cease to be at least some orthodox Catholic Successors to the Apostles. That is easily confirmed in the Oath against Modernism: "I firmly hold, then, and shall hold to my dying breath the belief of the Fathers in the charism of truth, which certainly is, was, and always will be in the succession of the episcopacy from the apostles." https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius10/p10moath.htm Same doctrine differently stated.

Want to read it in a Catechism? Here is that of Pope St. Pius X: "19 Q. Why is the Church also called Apostolic?
A. The true Church is also called Apostolic because she goes back without a break to the Apostles; because she believes and teaches all that the Apostles believed and taught; and because she is guided and governed by their lawful successors." If She were not governed by Apostolic Successors, what we profess in the Creed would be a false dogma each time we profess it. That is an absurdity. The Church will have Apostolic Successors until Christ comes again.

Another issue for Sedevacantists - the Ordinaries are necessary to pass the juridical declaration that the See is now (allegedly) vacant.

Fr. Suarez states: “I affirm: if he were a heretic and incorrigible the Pope would cease to be Pope just when a sentence was passed against him for his crime, by the legitimate jurisdiction of the Church. This is the common opinion among the doctors.”

So where is this legitimate jurisdiction to pass the juridical declaration necessary before electing a new Pope? Sedes need it, but don't have it. 

Again, in deciding the question of whether it should be Cardinals or Bishops to pass the sentence, it is said the Ordinary Pastors need to pass judgment, "In the first place, who should pronounce such a sentence? Some say that it should be the Cardinals; and the Church could undoubtedly assign them this faculty, above all if it were established with the consent and decision of the Supreme Pontiffs, as was done for the election. But to this day we do not read anywhere that such a judgment has been confided to them. For this reason, it must be affirmed that, of itself, it belongs to all the Bishops of the Church. For since they are the ordinary pastors and the pillars of the Church, one should consider that such a case concerns them. And since by divine law there is no greater reason to affirm that the matter involves some Bishops more than others, and since, according to human law, nothing has been established in the matter, it must necessarily be held that the matter should be referred to all of them, and even to a general Council. This is the common opinion of the doctors. One can read Cardinal Albano expounding upon this point at length in De Cardinalibus, (q. 35, 1584 ed., vol. 13, p. 2)." (32)  https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/1284-can-the-church-depose-an-heretical-pope



Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2020, 10:04:34 AM »
Vatican I doesn't teach heresy.
The Old Catholics think it does and make essentially the same argument as sedevacantists. 

You have taken the huge step of separating from the pope. If you're going to take a step like that, I would expect to see evidence of substantial study and some introspection.

Yet you don't seem to make distinctions about different meanings of "manifest heretic" according to different theologians. You haven't even established that V2 taught something contrary to QC. Theologians have published a lot on DH and QC including some detailed explanations of how they are not contrary. Have you read them all? Along with a wide range of Fathers and other theologians?

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2020, 10:17:38 AM »
Condemn the hierarchy as heretical and make up our own minds regarding matters of faith. Not Protestant at all...
It's sad to have to say that after 2000 years of the Church teaching all men how to keep and preserve the faith - and what we all must and must not do, and what to look out for in order to get to heaven, your above comment exemplifies the faithless mindset of the typical NOer.

Adhere to the highest principle in the Church and there will never be any argument or reason to concern ourselves, and no decision to make as regards the legitimacy of popes.

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2020, 11:43:06 AM »
Right.  BOTH R&R and SV positions have some difficulties with them.  Both sides need to acknowledge these difficulties in order to have any kind of constructive discussion.  Dogmatists on either side are dividing the Traditional movement.  They point to the issues with the other side as conclusive, while they explain away the difficulties with their own and pretend that it's just made up by their opponents.  People need to shows some good will and honesty.

Yes, it's a problem for the Holy See to be unoccupied for this long.  Yes, it's a problem with R&R so say that the Magisterium could go so badly off the rails as to create a practical requirement to sever communion with the hierarchy.  I lean toward SVism because I find the latter problem to be insurmountable, while the former is not.  But these are both genuine problems.
You really need to specify what you mean by the words I made bold in your post.
Does the problem have doctrinal implications, or merely practical implications?
The former are insurmountable, the latter surmountable. Big difference.
You wrote, "it's a problem for the Holy See to be unoccupied for this long"
Doctrinal problem with that?