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Author Topic: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?  (Read 9967 times)

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Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2020, 07:26:52 AM »
All bishops of all dioceses adhere to the robber council. The robber council taught heresy (e.g. a natural right of religious liberty = negation of the first commandment and of Quanta cura, the latter being a textbook example of ex cathedra teaching). Hence they're all manifest heretics. Hence they all lost office (or didn't have one, to begin with), as the fathers unanimously teach (see the Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellarmine).
1. How many of them been confronted with these alleged errors, and if they have not, are you sure they are "manifest heretics"?

2. Are you bound to accept DH, and if so, at what level (faith, piety, etc.)

3. Are you certain that DH is contrary to QC, and if so, what level of certainty?

The Old Catholics say Vatican I was a "robber council" and the Catholic church hierarchy has adhered to that error and lost all authority ever since. So how is sedevacantism not another version of Old Catholicism?

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2020, 08:14:29 AM »
1. How many of them been confronted with these alleged errors, and if they have not, are you sure they are "manifest heretics"?

Yes, I am sure, why? A manifest heretic is a heretic who is not an occult heretic. Yes, I am sure that they're manifest heretics, they don't conceal the fact that they adhere to the robber council.


Quote from: Tit 3
[9] But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law. For they are unprofitable and vain. [10] A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid: [11] Knowing that he, that is such an one, is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned by his own judgment.

Some read this to mean: If he hasn't been admonished, then he is not a heretic. But that's not what Paul says. The gist of what he says to Titus is: before you avoid a heretic, be charitable and give him a chance by admonishing him. On the other hand, don't spent too much time on him. And you don't need to condemn him (avoiding is sufficient) since he already is condemned by his own judgment.

Heretics may be classified as material vs. formal heretics, and Van Noort says:

Quote from: Van Noort, Dogmatic Theology Volume II: Christ's Church, p. 242
It is the more common opinion that public [i.e. manifest], material heretics are likewise excluded from membership. Theological reasoning for this opinion is quite strong: if public material heretics remained members of the Church, the visibility and unity of Christ's Church would perish. If these purely material heretics were considered members of the Catholic Church in the strict sense of the term, how would one ever locate the "Catholic Church"? How would the Church be one body? How would it profess one faith? Where would be its visibility? Where its unity? For these and other reasons we find it difficult to see any intrinsic probability to the opinion which would allow for public heretics, in good faith, remaining members of the Church.
source

Also, see my signature. Father of the Church St. Jerome, and Doctor of the Church St Robert support the more common opinion.



2. Are you bound to accept DH, and if so, at what level (faith, piety, etc.)

None can be bound to accept heresy, at whichever level. This question is not pertinent. Heretics do not need to bind anyone to be heretics. Rather, heretics cannot bind anyone to swallow their poison.


3. Are you certain that DH is contrary to QC, and if so, what level of certainty?

I am as certain as a man can be with respect to such questions. And I am obliged to follow my conscience whether I'm right or I'm wrong (see St. Thomas Aquinas).

Why would the Apostle ask us to reject a false gospel, if we shouldn't accept our own judgment based on received Church teaching? Why would the Council of Trent say

Quote from: General Council of Trent
As, however, it is not enough to speak the truth without discovering and refuting error, it has pleased the Holy Synod to subjoin the following canons, so that all, now knowing the Catholic doctrine, may also understand what heresies they have to beware against and avoid.
source

if we shouldn't accept our own judgment based on Church doctrine?


The Old Catholics say Vatican I was a "robber council" and the Catholic church hierarchy has adhered to that error and lost all authority ever since. So how is sedevacantism not another version of Old Catholicism?

Vatican I doesn't teach heresy.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2020, 08:46:31 AM »
Heretics may be classified as material vs. formal heretics, and Van Noort says:

This is based on Van Noort's IMO defective understanding of material vs. formal heresy.  There was a big semantic debate among theologians as to whether the term "material heretic" should even exist.  Van Noort's use the term implies bad will or insincerity that can only be known in the internal forum.  In order to be even a material heretic, however, pertinacity is required.  You can't just consider someone to be outside the Church because they blurt out a heretical proposition.  They could have just mis-spoken or are just plain ignorant.

Now, here's the problem for a Pope.  Popes are required by their duty of state to not be ignorant of Catholic doctrine.  Consequently, any ignorance of Catholic dogma on the part of Bergoglio is culpible.  It would be a different story for some ignorant peasant who had barely been catechized.  Bergoglio's heretical statements are presumed to be culpable and pertinacious.  Not to mention that Bergoglio has completely blown off attempts at correction regarding Amoris Laetitita.  He clearly refuses to be corrected, and that's prima facie evidence of pertinacity.

Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2020, 09:00:41 AM »
This is based on Van Noort's IMO defective understanding of material vs. formal heresy.  There was a big semantic debate among theologians as to whether the term "material heretic" should even exist.  Van Noort's use the term implies bad will or insincerity that can only be known in the internal forum.  In order to be even a material heretic, however, pertinacity is required.  You can't just consider someone to be outside the Church because they blurt out a heretical proposition.  They could have just mis-spoken or are just plain ignorant.


Could you please comment on the reasons why Van Noort says "we find it difficult to see any intrinsic probability to the opinion which would allow for public heretics, in good faith, remaining members of the Church."?!


Quote from: Van Noort
It is the more common opinion that public [i.e. manifest], material heretics are likewise excluded from membership. Theological reasoning for this opinion is quite strong: if public material heretics remained members of the Church, the visibility and unity of Christ's Church would perish. If these purely material heretics were considered members of the Catholic Church in the strict sense of the term, how would one ever locate the "Catholic Church"? How would the Church be one body? How would it profess one faith? Where would be its visibility? Where its unity? For these and other reasons we find it difficult to see any intrinsic probability to the opinion which would allow for public heretics, in good faith, remaining members of the Church.

What about the visibility of the Church?
What about the unity of the Church?
What about the Church professing one faith?

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Asking Sedevacantists: A Church without Popes Forever?
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2020, 09:33:06 AM »
Could you please comment on the reasons why Van Noort says "we find it difficult to see any intrinsic probability to the opinion which would allow for public heretics, in good faith, remaining members of the Church."?!

Yes, again, he's using the term "in good faith" to be synonymous with material heresy (vs. formal heresy).  He might say, for instance, that a Protestant heretic who's "in good faith" would still be outside the Church.  But according to the Traditional Thomistic understanding of the term "formal" in "formal heretic," all Protestants are by definition formal heretics.  That term "formal heretic" has morphed.

There's got to be a standard even for material heresy, such as pertinacity.  So, for instance, if there were some ignorant layman walking around claiming that the Immaculate Conception didn't happen, just because he was uneducated and had no access to catechesis, that doesn't prove pertinacity.  As St. Augustine taught, the litmus test is how quickly he would reject his opinion once he found out that it had been taught by the Church.  "Hey, bud, the Church teaches the Immaculate Conception."  "Oh, really?  Sorry.  I believe it then."  That person was never pertinacious and was never a non-member of the Church.  Pertinacity is a requirement.

Nevertheless, I do believe that pertinacity is presumed on the part of Bergoglio because as a result of his duties of state he is bound to know Church dogma, and any ignorance is therefore culpable.  There's no question that Bergoglio is a presume pertinacious heretic by virtue of his duty of state.  Even Father Chazal admits this.  Only question is what happens to his office as a result:  is he ipso facto deposed or does he require deposition by the Church, or [my preference], he remains in material possession of the office until the Church relieves him of it but has lost all formal authority in the Church.