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Author Topic: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?  (Read 2967 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
« on: November 23, 2023, 12:20:19 AM »
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    [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER.[/color]

    CANON VII.–If any one saith, that bishops are not superior to priests; or, that they have not the power of confirming and ordaining; or, that the power which they possess is common to them and to priests; or, that orders, conferred by them, without the consent, or vocation of the people, or of the secular power, are invalid; or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.    [/size][/color]
    So does this mean traditional clergy are not lawful? What are the implications of this? And has this been addressed by traditional groups?
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #1 on: November 23, 2023, 01:36:07 AM »
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    • This sounds like an argument that home-aloners would make, Gerry Matatics immediately comes to mind.
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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #2 on: November 23, 2023, 05:14:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on November 23, 2023, 12:20:19 AM
    So does this mean traditional clergy are not lawful? What are the implications of this? And has this been addressed by traditional groups?
    "or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema"

    Yes, Anthony, this has been dealt with exhaustively. It is all about the state of necessity which justifies the law of necessity. Much was published on it at the time of Archbishop Lefebvre's "operation survival" consecrations in 1988 and subsequently. Ultimately it comes down to the supreme law of the Church which is the salvation of souls. The modernists deny the state of necessity, so they cry 'unlawful', 'schismatic', 'excommunicated'! Ironically, at least in Tradition we have "rightly ordained" ministers which is more than they can claim!

    Consider these words of Archbishop Lefebvre regarding consecration of a bishop to replace Bishop de Castro Mayer in Campos: Since the jurisdiction of the bishop is not territorial but personal and has as its source the duty of the faithful to save their souls, if a group of faithful in the diocese calls upon the bishop to have a priest, this group gives by this very fact, authority to the bishop to watch over the transmission of the Faith and of grace in this group, by the intermediary of the priest that he sent.
    Thus, so it seems to me, will be resolved in an order, which is in conformity to the spirit of the Church, the delicate problems which come from an episcopal consecration without the explicit mandate of Rome but with the implicit mandate of the Roman Church, Guardian of the Faith.
    The new bishop remains the ontological link with the Church, faithful to its Divine Spouse, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

    You will find a lot of useful resources on this website, especially the Si Si No No studies on the Consecrations of 1988: http://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/index.htm


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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #3 on: November 23, 2023, 08:39:28 AM »
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    • Of course, under normal circuмstances, it is necessary for priests to be subject to bishops to have a "lawful" ministry.  But these are not normal times.  What may not be lawful under normal circuмstances may be permissible in extraordinary ones.  That's why Canonists hold that the highest Church law is the salvation of souls.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #4 on: November 23, 2023, 09:04:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on November 23, 2023, 08:39:28 AM
    That's why Canonists hold that the highest Church law is the salvation of souls.

    This is where the home-aloners err, in not understanding that Church law assumes a properly-functioning Church and is meant to maintain order in the Church, which, under normal circuмstances, is conducive toward the salvation of souls, but when enforcement of the law runs counter to that ultimate end of all Church law, the law does not apply.  This is clear from the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #5 on: November 23, 2023, 09:18:20 AM »
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    • There is much confusion, and many Catholics (of good will?) get it wrong, but I gotta say the error that bothers me the most is when people forget we are not in ordinary times.

    It's about as crazy as waking up in the world of Mad Max and pretending everything is normal: imagine someone waking up literally in the movie Mad Max and asking one of the characters where one can pay his property taxes, or asking for directions to the nearest Starbucks. That's exactly how I feel when Trads or "Trads" talk as if there's no epic, unprecedented Crisis in the Church which clearly justifies extraordinary measures.

    It's like "Hello? Are you blind? Do you not see anything amiss with the current situation in the Church?" Those people need to be introduced to Novus Ordo Watch. Not Trads, who already know there's a Crisis, but these blind idiots are the proper audience for that website.

    Imagine 2 people on a stereotypical desert island (with one palm tree in the middle) and one of them wants to be baptized. Imagine if the guy made a fuss because they don't have holy water available -- just sea water. Imagine if the other guy said "Yeah, you're right. The rules clearly state holy water must be used, unless you're in a state of emergency. So we'll have to scratch THAT option!"
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #6 on: November 23, 2023, 10:28:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on November 23, 2023, 12:20:19 AM
    So does this mean traditional clergy are not lawful? What are the implications of this? And has this been addressed by traditional groups?
    Yes, the home alone contingent.  Stay far, far away unless you choose to live the rest of your life without the Sacraments (contrasted with those who have no choice).
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #7 on: November 23, 2023, 11:02:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 23, 2023, 09:18:20 AM
    There is much confusion, and many Catholics (of good will?) get it wrong, but I gotta say the error that bothers me the most is when people forget we are not in ordinary times.

    It's about as crazy as waking up in the world of Mad Max and pretending everything is normal: imagine someone waking up literally in the movie Mad Max and asking one of the characters where one can pay his property taxes, or asking for directions to the nearest Starbucks. That's exactly how I feel when Trads or "Trads" talk as if there's no epic, unprecedented Crisis in the Church which clearly justifies extraordinary measures.

    It's like "Hello? Are you blind? Do you not see anything amiss with the current situation in the Church?" Those people need to be introduced to Novus Ordo Watch. Not Trads, who already know there's a Crisis, but these blind idiots are the proper audience for that website.

    Imagine 2 people on a stereotypical desert island (with one palm tree in the middle) and one of them wants to be baptized. Imagine if the guy made a fuss because they don't have holy water available -- just sea water. Imagine if the other guy said "Yeah, you're right. The rules clearly state holy water must be used, unless you're in a state of emergency. So we'll have to scratch THAT option!"

    Well put.  I like the Mad Max analogy.  St. Athanasius and a couple other orthodox bishops were going around consecrating Catholic bishops for areas whose official See had been usurped by the Arians ... without any papal approval.

    Canon Law is intended to maintain order and in normal times it does exactly that.  Imagine priests going off and starting independent chapels in the United States in the 1940s, and the chaos that would result.  But when we have the entire putative hierarchy thoroughly infested with various heresies, it's a different animal altogether, similar to Arian times when 97%-99% of the episcopal sees had been taken over by Arians.  I'm sure there were independent priests floating around offering Mass without the approval of the local Arian bishop.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
    « Reply #8 on: November 24, 2023, 06:28:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on November 23, 2023, 09:18:20 AM
    There is much confusion, and many Catholics (of good will?) get it wrong, but I gotta say the error that bothers me the most is when people forget we are not in ordinary times.

    It's about as crazy as waking up in the world of Mad Max and pretending everything is normal: imagine someone waking up literally in the movie Mad Max and asking one of the characters where one can pay his property taxes, or asking for directions to the nearest Starbucks. That's exactly how I feel when Trads or "Trads" talk as if there's no epic, unprecedented Crisis in the Church which clearly justifies extraordinary measures.

    It's like "Hello? Are you blind? Do you not see anything amiss with the current situation in the Church?" Those people need to be introduced to Novus Ordo Watch. Not Trads, who already know there's a Crisis, but these blind idiots are the proper audience for that website.

    Imagine 2 people on a stereotypical desert island (with one palm tree in the middle) and one of them wants to be baptized. Imagine if the guy made a fuss because they don't have holy water available -- just sea water. Imagine if the other guy said "Yeah, you're right. The rules clearly state holy water must be used, unless you're in a state of emergency. So we'll have to scratch THAT option!"
    Great post.  I agree 100%.

    As for your bolded comment, Mario has often had to state/clarify in his combox that this is its primary purpose (although without the reference to "blind idiots"...lol).  Every once in a while, former NO posters come forward and acknowledge that NOW has helped to awaken them/explain what has been troubling them.  However, it is definitely few and far between.

    I really think that there is a very small percentage of Novus Ordites left who even want to find answers.  They are either quite happy with their Novus Ordo religion, service, priest, and pope or they choose to turn a blind eye despite any unhappiness or concerns. A close friend of mine comes to mind.  I think my mother has a better shot at requesting baptism before she dies than this NO friend has in coming to the True Faith before she dies.
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