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Author Topic: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?  (Read 6346 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
« on: November 23, 2023, 12:20:19 AM »

Quote
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]ON THE SACRAMENT OF ORDER.[/color]

CANON VII.–If any one saith, that bishops are not superior to priests; or, that they have not the power of confirming and ordaining; or, that the power which they possess is common to them and to priests; or, that orders, conferred by them, without the consent, or vocation of the people, or of the secular power, are invalid; or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema.[/size][/color]
So does this mean traditional clergy are not lawful? What are the implications of this? And has this been addressed by traditional groups?
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Offline SimpleMan

Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2023, 01:36:07 AM »
This sounds like an argument that home-aloners would make, Gerry Matatics immediately comes to mind.
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Offline Plenus Venter

Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2023, 05:14:59 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyPadua on November 23, 2023, 12:20:19 AM
So does this mean traditional clergy are not lawful? What are the implications of this? And has this been addressed by traditional groups?
"or, that those who have neither been rightly ordained, nor sent, by ecclesiastical and canonical power, but come from elsewhere, are lawful ministers of the word and of the sacraments; let him be anathema"

Yes, Anthony, this has been dealt with exhaustively. It is all about the state of necessity which justifies the law of necessity. Much was published on it at the time of Archbishop Lefebvre's "operation survival" consecrations in 1988 and subsequently. Ultimately it comes down to the supreme law of the Church which is the salvation of souls. The modernists deny the state of necessity, so they cry 'unlawful', 'schismatic', 'excommunicated'! Ironically, at least in Tradition we have "rightly ordained" ministers which is more than they can claim!

Consider these words of Archbishop Lefebvre regarding consecration of a bishop to replace Bishop de Castro Mayer in Campos: Since the jurisdiction of the bishop is not territorial but personal and has as its source the duty of the faithful to save their souls, if a group of faithful in the diocese calls upon the bishop to have a priest, this group gives by this very fact, authority to the bishop to watch over the transmission of the Faith and of grace in this group, by the intermediary of the priest that he sent.
Thus, so it seems to me, will be resolved in an order, which is in conformity to the spirit of the Church, the delicate problems which come from an episcopal consecration without the explicit mandate of Rome but with the implicit mandate of the Roman Church, Guardian of the Faith.
The new bishop remains the ontological link with the Church, faithful to its Divine Spouse, Our Lord Jesus Christ.

You will find a lot of useful resources on this website, especially the Si Si No No studies on the Consecrations of 1988: http://sspxasia.com/Docuмents/SiSiNoNo/index.htm


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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2023, 08:39:28 AM »
Of course, under normal circuмstances, it is necessary for priests to be subject to bishops to have a "lawful" ministry.  But these are not normal times.  What may not be lawful under normal circuмstances may be permissible in extraordinary ones.  That's why Canonists hold that the highest Church law is the salvation of souls.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Are traditional priests not lawful according to Trent?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2023, 09:04:21 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on November 23, 2023, 08:39:28 AM
That's why Canonists hold that the highest Church law is the salvation of souls.

This is where the home-aloners err, in not understanding that Church law assumes a properly-functioning Church and is meant to maintain order in the Church, which, under normal circuмstances, is conducive toward the salvation of souls, but when enforcement of the law runs counter to that ultimate end of all Church law, the law does not apply.  This is clear from the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas.
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