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Author Topic: And you thought it all began with Vatican II  (Read 9486 times)

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And you thought it all began with Vatican II
« Reply #50 on: December 24, 2012, 10:18:39 AM »
Thank you so much for posting that wonderful text here, Hobbledehoy. That's a topic, the Blessed Mother and the Church, that is close to my heart as you and I have discussed. A similar topic was recently discussed on the forum itself, I wonder if Neil Obstat is reading this thread and what he thinks of that text?

A brief response to this claim from Bowler,

Quote
Get ready because the sede-vacantes are the next lepers that will replace the "Lefebvre-ists", among the Indult mass types like the Remnant and such, and now even the Angelus.


I know many Catholics who are "Indult Mass types" who don't consider anybody to be "lepers" but in fact greatly respect and are very grateful to Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX, believe them to formerly have been unjustly excommunicated (something St.Thomas, other Saints and theologians have mentioned is a possibility) and, while disagreeing with the sedevacantist opinion, do not condemn at all those who hold it as an attempted explanation of events.

The real battle in our view is against the modernists now entrenched in the Church, and in the absence of exceptional and divine intervention, which we always hope for but will never presume on, it will probably take at least 20-30 years to recover and restore the Church at large to doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis, if necessary, one chapel, one seminary, one parish, one community at a time.

Then when orthodoxy outlasts modernism, we shall have worthy clerics and then Bishops, then finally Cardinals and with the restoration of Rome to the practice and the preaching of the faith in its entirety, with the ceasing of scandal and indifference, when anathemas from there thunder once more against the liberal and heteredox priests and prelates who truly deserve it, we shall at long last have a traditional Pope and the way to the restoration of all things in Christ shall be clear.

It is not ideal, but in our opinion, it is far and away the best way forward.

Offline Capt McQuigg

  • Supporter
And you thought it all began with Vatican II
« Reply #51 on: December 25, 2012, 05:39:06 PM »
Quote from: Nishant
Thank you so much for posting that wonderful text here, Hobbledehoy. That's a topic, the Blessed Mother and the Church, that is close to my heart as you and I have discussed. A similar topic was recently discussed on the forum itself, I wonder if Neil Obstat is reading this thread and what he thinks of that text?

A brief response to this claim from Bowler,

Quote
Get ready because the sede-vacantes are the next lepers that will replace the "Lefebvre-ists", among the Indult mass types like the Remnant and such, and now even the Angelus.


I know many Catholics who are "Indult Mass types" who don't consider anybody to be "lepers" but in fact greatly respect and are very grateful to Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX, believe them to formerly have been unjustly excommunicated (something St.Thomas, other Saints and theologians have mentioned is a possibility) and, while disagreeing with the sedevacantist opinion, do not condemn at all those who hold it as an attempted explanation of events.

The real battle in our view is against the modernists now entrenched in the Church, and in the absence of exceptional and divine intervention, which we always hope for but will never presume on, it will probably take at least 20-30 years to recover and restore the Church at large to doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis, if necessary, one chapel, one seminary, one parish, one community at a time.

Then when orthodoxy outlasts modernism, we shall have worthy clerics and then Bishops, then finally Cardinals and with the restoration of Rome to the practice and the preaching of the faith in its entirety, with the ceasing of scandal and indifference, when anathemas from there thunder once more against the liberal and heteredox priests and prelates who truly deserve it, we shall at long last have a traditional Pope and the way to the restoration of all things in Christ shall be clear.

It is not ideal, but in our opinion, it is far and away the best way forward.


If the FSSP would engulf the entire novus ordo, I would call it a big step in the right direction.

Perhaps in the next 10-15 years, an FSSP priest could become a Traditional Bishop (1 out of 3000 or so) and maybe that bishop could become pope some day.  

Is my thinking the thinking of a person who buys a lottery ticket?  

I'll reiterate my first sentence by saying that the FSSP is a big step up from the average novus ordo parish.  

Are FSSP priests ordained using the pre-Paul VI changes?  Would this matter?  I mean, we can't really prove the validity of priests ordained during the 1300's (particularly during the Great Western Schism).  

Maybe someday an FSSP priest will become bishop then will become pope and, by that time, the novus ordo will have shrunk considerably and the FSSP bishop will pick up the pieces and glue them back together again.





And you thought it all began with Vatican II
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2013, 09:54:33 PM »
"I'll reiterate my first sentence by saying that the FSSP is a big step up from the average novus ordo parish.  

Are FSSP priests ordained using the pre-Paul VI changes?  Would this matter?  I mean, we can't really prove the validity of priests ordained during the 1300's (particularly during the Great Western Schism).  

Maybe someday an FSSP priest will become bishop then will become pope and, by that time, the novus ordo will have shrunk considerably and the FSSP bishop will pick up the pieces and glue them back together again."

    If I am not mistaken and I very well may be, the FSSP is compromised with the counterfeit church which silently created the FSSP after the 1988 consecrations as a counter coup. FSSP compromised by allowing the NO evil "fabrication" in its group. I believe that the 1968 ordinand was used thereby placing a question as to their priestly imprint with NO bishops performing the work.
    So, wouldn't the desire be that an SSPX priest whose ordination is according to the old rite and who has made no compromise with NO be become Pope?

         I don't intend to harm anyone but just express my thinking.

           Quantum Potes, Tantum Aude!

And you thought it all began with Vatican II
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2013, 03:51:18 PM »
Quote from: drivocek


    If I am not mistaken and I very well may be, the FSSP is compromised with the counterfeit church which silently created the FSSP after the 1988 consecrations as a counter coup. FSSP compromised by allowing the NO evil "fabrication" in its group. I believe that the 1968 ordinand was used thereby placing a question as to their priestly imprint with NO bishops performing the work.
    So, wouldn't the desire be that an SSPX priest whose ordination is according to the old rite and who has made no compromise with NO be become Pope?



That is 100% correct as far as the old guard SSPX, and staunch independents is concerned.


 However, it is not a big deal for people who prefer an accord with Rome. They'd even take a Novus ordo conservative bishop.

And you thought it all began with Vatican II
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2013, 04:17:48 AM »
This an interesting subject, thank you for posting it. I think Pius XII when the Church overcomes all of these problems may be "nixed". He was a clear supporter of Zionism. He hired the liturgical "reformer"Annibale Bugnini. This came from the secret Vatican archives. I am including a Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-34424?l=english

Docuмents: Pius XII Favored a Jєωιѕн Homeland in Palestine

Foundation Continues to Unearth Testimony That Pius Was in No Way 'Hitler's Pope'

NEW YORK, MARCH 8, 2012 (Zenit.org).- An organization researching the history of Pius XII's relationship with the Jews says that a series of docuмents recently uncovered show a pattern of direct actions by Archbishop Eugenio Pacelli (the future Pope) that culminated in the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

The New York-based Pave the Way Foundation explained that in 1917, Archbishop Eugenio Pacelli met with Nahum Sokolow, president of the World Zionist organization and arranged for Sokolow to meet with Pope Benedict XV to discuss a Jєωιѕн Homeland. In a passionate report, Sokolow wrote of his audience on May 12, 1917:
 
“I was first of all received by Msgr. Eugenio Pacelli, Secretary for Extraordinary Affairs, and had a few days later a long conference with Cardinal Secretary of State Gasparri. Both meetings were extraordinarily friendly and positive. I don’t tend towards credulity or exaggerations and still I can’t avoid to stress that this revealed an extraordinary amount of friendship: to grant a Jew and representative of Zionism with such a promptness a private audience which took so long and was of such a warmth and took place with all assurance of sympathy, both for the Jews in general and for Zionism in special, proves that we don’t need to expect any obstacles which can’t be overcome from the side of the Vatican. The Pope asked me, ‘Pacelli told me about your mission; do you want to tell me any more details?’" (File A 18/25 in the Main Archive of Yad Vashem)
 
A statement from Pave the Way further noted: On November 15, 1917, Nuncio Pacelli acted on a urgent request for his intervention from the Jєωιѕн community of Switzerland from what was feared would be an Ottoman Massacre of Jews of Palestine. Pacelli asked the German government, who was allied with the Ottoman Turks, for protection for the Jews of Palestine. Pacelli was successful in gaining promised protection of the Jews from the German government “even with the use of arms.”
 
Pacelli met with Sokolow again on Feb. 15, 1925, and arranged another meeting with Cardinal Pietro Gasparri on the subject of a Jєωιѕн homeland in Palestine. In 1926, Pacelli urged all Catholics to join the pro-Palestine movement in Germany with such notable members as Albert Einstein, Thomas Mann, Konrad Adenauer, and Fr. Ludwig Kaas.
 
PTWF learned of the existence of one very interesting docuмent, still unpublished, which may show Pius XII’s attitude about a Jєωιѕн homeland. In 1944, Pius XII opposed the general feeling of his Secretary of State, when he responded to Monsignor Domenico Tardini’s written warning against helping the Jews establish a homeland. Pius XII wrote by hand, “The Jews need a land of their own.” This docuмent is in the closed section of the Vatican Library and will not be available until the archives are fully open.
 
The foundation explained that researchers have also uncovered the 1946 speech Pius XII delivered to a delegation of Arabs who came to Rome to dissuade the Pope from endorsing a Jєωιѕн homeland in Palestine. Pius XII ended the meeting leaving the Arab delegation greatly disappointed by clearly stating, “As we also condemn several times in the past, the persecution that fanatical anti-Semitism unleashed against the Jєωιѕн people.”
 
According to research by the Raoul Wallenberg Foundation, it was Pius XII who “paved the way” for the Catholic Countries members of the United Nations to positively vote in favor of the partitioning of Palestine in November 1947. We have uncovered news articles about the Vatican encouraging Spain to recognize the Jєωιѕн state in 1955.
 
Elliot Hershberg, Director of the Pave the Way Foundation, said “our research has shown that Pope Pius XII’s positive relationship with the Jєωιѕн people began in Pacelli’s youth with his close childhood friend, an Orthodox Jєωιѕн boy named Guido Mendes. Pacelli would share in Shabbat meals, he learned to read Hebrew and borrow the books of the great rabbinic scholars. The docuмents we have uncovered reveal Pacelli’s numerous interventions to save Jєωιѕн lives and protect Jєωιѕн traditions. This evidence repudiates the allegations that Pacelli was in any way anti-Semitic, which has been stated as fact by some historians.”
 
Gary Krupp, President of Pave the Way stated, “it has been the goal of Pave the Way Foundation to use our international relationships to identify and make available, every docuмent we can locate to post on-line and make this information available to scholars worldwide, whether the message is positive or negative. To date we have posted online over 46,000 pages of research material, along with multiple eyewitness video interviews. In accordance with our mission, we are trying to resolve this 47-year-old obstacle between Jews and Catholics.”