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Neil Obstat

This thread has become completely derailed.  My only purpose in even starting this discussion was to show that contrary to what so many on this forum believe, the problems in the Church didn't begin with Vatican II.  Far from it.  In reality they were present for decades, perhaps even a century. The pictures I posted are irrefutable proof of this.  I wasn't trying argue about or get involved in a heated discussion about the bad and ugly of the Council.  

I feel sorry for you, you can't accept my simple acceptance of your apology.  Your sarcasm only shows your insincerity in making it in the first place.  Why did you even bother making it at all?   There was no bragging on my part,  I think it's a perfectly normal reaction to feel a little angry when one is accused of something they're not guilty of.

In the future I'll try remember to put in quotations any comments that are not my own but the work of others so and not to confuse anyone.

So you're angry and broken hearted with all the changes the modernists have wrought.  I don't blame you, a lot of people are.  What do you propose Catholics should do other than to sit around and constantly bellyache?  To me this is an exercise in futility.  It is not constructive and solves nothing.  What steps or actions do you propose we should take in order to repair the damage?  

It sounds like if God wanted to take everyone for a big, big
surprise, He would have the famous restoration AFTER the
Antichrist is DEFEATED, then there would be nothing to hold
back the worldwide spread of the One, True Faith outside of
which there is no salvation.

Think of it this way:

After the Antichrist is defeated, nothing stands in the way of
the Church spreading worldwide as fast as the winds can
blow the autumn leaves, as straight as the crow flies (which
isn't very straight BTW). So the whole world becomes
Catholic, and then some wise guy comes along (there's never
been a shortage of wise guys, so why not then??) and says,
But after your Antichrist was going to be defeated, there was
supposed to be the Second Coming of Christ -- RIGHT?? So,
where is he now?? What's taking so long? And it catches on,
you see: the inescapable Fallen Nature of Man keeps coming
back, you see? It always has, so why would it not then??

It catches on, and before too long (it's only taken 50 years to
practically wipe out the Church since Vat.II -- so these things
don't take forever) everyone is "eating and drinking,
marrying and giving in marriage -- Behold I have told it to you,
beforehand" (Mt. xxiv. 38.25) -- and THAT'S the time, the time
when, "...the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think
 you, faith on earth?" (Lk. xviii. 8).

My understanding of Catholic prophecy is that after the minor chastisement the Church and the world will be restored and that this restoration will occur before[color] the son of perdition makes his appearance.  That does not mean that during the era of peace every single person living will embrace the truth, repent and be converted to the one true faith.  The tares will always exist alongside the wheat in this earthly life.  

Because of the age of peace, little by little man will again begin to grow lax in his duties to God and his love for Him will be almost completely extinguished.  Man will be even more wicked and perverse than he is now.  It is not good for man to be so blessed, he begins to forget about God and becomes too caught up in worldly pleasures.  He doesn't remember that God is the author of all that is good and in his arrogance, he even believes he's the source of it.  He feels no need for God.  That is why Jesus said that when He returns will He find find anyone with faith.  After the Antichrist is defeated, God in His infinite mercy will grant a very short period of time for the remaining inhabitants of the world to repent and be converted.  Some people are of the opinion that this period will last a literal 45 days before the last trumpet blast and the appearance of the Son of Man in the heavens and the beginning of the general judgment.  They arrive at this conclusion form the prophecies of Daniel.  No matter what, it is clear from approved Catholic prophecies and scripture that after the the minor chastisement man will be blessed with a period of peace in which the Church will be fully restored.  The Gospel will be proclaimed to all the ends of earth and every person will be given the full knowledge of the of the truth.  Therefore, when God returns, man will be absolutely without excuse.  He will have been blessed abundantly both materially and spiritually as never before in the entire history of the world.  How long this era of peace will last depends on how man responds to and cooperates with God's grace.  It's exact length is something known to God alone.  

Daniel 12:11&12

And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days,

 From the abolishing of the mass as much as possible, and the practice of heresy and abomination, unto the end of antichrist's persecution, 1290 days shall elapse. W.

Blessed is he that waiteth and cometh unto a thousand three hundred thirty-five days.

Some respite will be granted for forty-five days, during which sinners may repent. M. --- It is difficult to say why forty-five days are here added to the former number. We are content to depart with Daniel, (v. 9.) without searching any farther into these high mysteries. W
http://www.veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Daniel_12

Vat.II WAS, IS, AND CONTINUES
TO BE essentially man rebelling against his creator, for the Holy
Ghost was nowhere in sight then, and is likewise nowhere in
sight today, so long as anyone continues to defend it ---
INCLUDING YOU!

That's correct, read it an' weep, in your pillow or out of it, but
facts is facts, my dear: When you defend Vat.II you are doing..

n o t h i n g h o l y!!

For the Holy Ghost is most definitely NOT protecting you in the
process, nor was He, is He, nor will He be in the future. And I
 can prove it, but this post is already getting longish, so...... etc.

And yet you continue on and on.  

Oh please do!!!   Prove to me that Holy Spirit is not protecting me and never will.  What a throughly rotten and evil thing to say.  It's obvious to me that the Holy Spirit is not present in you nor is He protecting you.  Your whole tone gives the impression that you are nothing but a conceited wingbag who thinks he is the expert on all things.  My. you have even been blessed with the gift reading the condition of my soul.

Now, I have to say, that is perhaps the perfect answer to this.

You must have read something like St. Alphonsus de Liguori's
Preparation for Death to have that outlook.

 So all is not lost after all! Alleluia! Woops- it's Advent!

Just couldn't resist throwing in that snide remark could you!!!  No my outlook isn't taken from any of the writings of the saints.  It's the result of a lot of hard knocks (mostly due to my own fault) I've received in this life and the wisdom God has blessed me with.  There is nothing in this life worth getting all cracked up about.  I've always had this attitude.

So now, understanding the principle in the material context,
take it a step up to the spiritual context, and see: poor
immigrants came to America and built beautiful churches with
their pennies, nickles and dimes they saved instead of buying
treats for themselves, and along came the wreckovationists -
you know, the ones you keep saying had nothing to do with
the reprehensible Council, those ones, right. And they took
jack hammers to the ornate marble altars and rare black gold
veined marble communion rails.

You can't even find the raw materials anymore, but no matter,
 tear it out, "in the spirit of Vatican II."

I understand all this.  I too was a witness to some of it.  Although fortunately at the parish I belonged to at the time, there were only minor changes made (such as the installation of the table in front of the high altar).  Most of the interior ornaments and decorations were kept intact so that the beauty was persevered.  If fact to this day all the stained glassed windows remain, the beautiful murals painted on the ceiling depicting heavenly scenes, the original stations of the cross, etc.  We we blessed with two very frugal monsignors who appreciated all the sacrifices people had made in order to build the Church.  

I also can empathize with the pain many felt when they saw all that they had worked and sacrificed for so hard for (often denying themselves their very bread) literally torn out and thrown in the dumpster.  All because of the crackpot ideas of some.

Go ahead and post some photos. Those were Solemn Requiem
Masses according to Sacred Tradition -- while it still hung on
with a tenacious grip that the wreckovationists could not even
disengage -- yet. Why? Because, your Vatican II-that-was-
 not-to-blame, was still in progress! That's why!!

My Vatican II.  Gimmie me a break, I was seven years old when the Council was called.  How am I in anyway responsible for all this?

I'm trough,  I can't take any more of your long winded spiel.  You treat me like a retarded little child who doesn't understand the most rudimentary truths and doctrines of the Church.  You even accuse me of being smug and presumptuous.  If anyone has the patience to sit and read through all you have posted, I think it's a very sad but unavoidable conclusion that you are a very bitter and angry little man.  Lighten up.  Get away from this forum for awhile. It only feeds your anger and disillusionment.   Go out and do something that will make you happy.  Surely there is something that must make you happy.  Take a look at God's beautiful creation.  Which in my humble little opinion is far more beautiful and breathtaking and any man made edifice.

Have a good day.

Neil Obstat

This thread has become completely derailed.  My only purpose in even starting this discussion was to show that contrary to what so many on this forum believe, the problems in the Church didn't begin with Vatican II.  Far from it.  In reality they were present for decades, perhaps even a century. The pictures I posted are irrefutable proof of this.  I wasn't trying argue about or get involved in a heated discussion about the bad and ugly of the Council.

This thread serves a good purpose - thanks for posting!

I think most trads know that the changes started well before V2 -I mean shoot, Pope St. Pius the X called out the modernists of his time and that was what, 100 years ago?

The thing about V2 is, that was when the deciding factor happened, the line in the sand was crossed, the courageous clergy gave in and the surrender flag of "[false] obedience" was raised - and 50 years later, that same flag continues to lead the blind..............ironic when you think about it because since that time, obedience to authority, any and basically all authority, including the pope's authority has all but completely deteriorated.

At any rate, V2, being hailed by the modernists themselves for the last 50 years as the "greatest council" etc. bs, is the main reason why trads look to it and condemn it because it was at that point in time when the True Church officially became the new church.

Good posts with picture illustration etc.  I can confirm that the spaceship church building is what Vatican 2 aimed for and it's the most destructive change in holy structures ever to have been forced up the vestiges of what onlookers view as the Catholic Church.

But as for rowsofvoices, what gives. For the most part your posts are traditional aka Catholic but then you quote some canon blip in your signature that I haven't verified yet but is anti-sedevacantist.  Do you even know one iota about sedevacantism let alone traditional Catholicism which is what sedevacantists are? It's so two faced and hypocritical of you , really, and anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of Catholic theology and logic can see.