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Author Topic: Detraction - When are We Guilty?  (Read 2312 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2021, 07:09:08 PM »
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  • I just don't have much patience for the sanctimonious and self-righteous, of which, CathInfo seems to have an abundance of from time to time.
    Lesson learned:  

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #31 on: July 05, 2021, 09:03:10 PM »
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  • This thread lacks charity. Also, I forget if it was the Bp. Selway or the Sensus Fidelium video I posted, but, they specifically mention that pointing out another's faults can be considered an act of pride as well. And this goes for all involved.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #32 on: July 05, 2021, 09:36:52 PM »
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  • Lesson learned:  

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
    I apologize for that last posting. It's ironic that by posting that quote, I was actually jumping into the mud with him. So, I am now full of mud too.  This will end my posting on this thread.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #33 on: July 06, 2021, 08:33:42 AM »
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  • Not true at all.  I just don't have much patience for the sanctimonious and self-righteous, of which, CathInfo seems to have an abundance of from time to time.  

    Yes, but it's also a fact that no one likes a mirror held up to them when they're dirty. Or to be illuminated with the harsh light of truth when they are imperfect.
    "What would CathInfo think?" is a convenient, reachable human shorthand for "What would God think?".

    You can see this by the use of the αnσnymσus forum for topics one is embarrassed to sign even their "screen name" to. They KNOW how CathInfo will react to it. And why? Because CathInfo is a bunch of pearl-clutching hypocrites? Or because they possess the truth and live by the Catholic Faith, and call a spade a spade. They don't play games or pretend when it comes to morality.

    You know, to a wicked person the "hypocrite" and the actual saint are just as hateful. Both tweak the conscience, and the sinner doesn't like that.

    You're not paranoid if people are actually trying to kill you. And if a person is objectively holier than thou art, can you rightfully disparage them as "holier-than-thou"?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #34 on: July 06, 2021, 11:42:24 AM »
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  • Yes, but it's also a fact that no one likes a mirror held up to them when they're dirty.
    ...
    You're not paranoid if people are actually trying to kill you. And if a person is objectively holier than thou art, can you rightfully disparage them as "holier-than-thou"?

    And it's a fact that those who have Pharisaical and judgmental attitudes also don't like that mirror to be held up either, in many cases moreso that others who have other faults, given that pride is the predominant fault.  Those who labor under other sins are sometimes very well aware that they are not living up to the right standard.

    As for your last statement, absolutely one can call out someone who is "objectively" holier ... in some respects ... for a "holier-than-thou" attitude.  Those Pharisees our Lord rebuked in the famous parable of the Pharisee and the Publican did in fact keep the law much better than the publican, but it's a question of ATTITUDE.  All of the saints, who had true holiness, considered themselves to be the least holy of men.  That's often been a point of discussion.  Was that false humility since it was clearly objectively false, and humility is truth?  No, they considered themselves the least holy because they had an acute awareness of their own failings, knew which graces they were offered and didn't live up to perfectly, etc. ... while they granted their neighbor the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps they received fewer actual graces for some reason, perhaps were born into difficult circuмstances, had tendencies from their natural temperament that perhaps inclined them to certain faults, perhaps had tons of circuмstances and prudential considerations and other obstacles that prevented them from living as they should all the time.   ONLY GOD can judge souls at that level.  We can only judge objective right and wrong.

    So, yes, it's perfectly fine, depending on the situation, when motivated by true charity, to point out when people aren't living up the standards of holiness, either to help correct one's neighbor or else to encourage others to avoid those faults.

    Nevertheless, pride is the most difficult and deadly and insidious of all the sins, the devil's sin, which is why Our Lord was so harsh with the Pharisees and relatively gentle on the heretics (like the Sadducees) or the Samaritans.  To these latter, He pointed out that they were in error, but rarely used the strong language He employed against the Pharisees for their hypocrisy.  You can count on one hand that the Lord rebuked people for erroneous beliefs, whereas the Gospels are filled with His denunciations of hypocrisy and Pharisaism.

    And the devil attacks Traditional Catholics who live well with the temptation to pride, and a temptation to look down their nose at others who do not compare to them with respect to some virtues.

    You can go ahead and denounce immodest dress or other aspects of Traditional Catholic behavior all you want here on CI, but for the most part you're preaching to the choir.  But we all must remain vigilant against pride and against being judgmental.  We know not what graces others have received, what their temperaments are, what their temptations are, what their circuмstances are.

    But there's an extremely BLURRY line between pointing out a defect with the proper motive and looking down our nose at these others, and the devil knows how to manipulate it very easily.  We must remain ever vigilant against this fault.

    Speaking of how insidious pride can be, how many people when listening to the parable of the Pharisee and Publican, even if very subtly, identify with the Publican and, in a manner of speaking, think, "Thank God I'm not like that Pharisee."  See the irony and how quickly the devil can twist things.  When listening to that parable, we all need to be vigilant against giving even the slightest foothold to pride, and we need to focus on how and to what extent we ARE just like the Pharisee.  All but the greatest saints have at least a small current of pride that the devil is always ready to exploit.  As soon as one begins to think him humble, that immediately becomes an occasion of pride.  We have the clear example of Mr. Humble himself, Jorge Bergoglio, who prides himself on his humility and promotes it at every turn, deriding those who are not as humble as he.  But the devil works much more subtly than that on most people, so that he can gradually slide them into a bad place without their even knowing it.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #35 on: July 06, 2021, 01:32:52 PM »
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  • P.S.- not a one example of this accusation of LT's sin of pride has been exhibited by anyone, not a one.

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #36 on: July 06, 2021, 02:00:34 PM »
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  • Is there ANYONE on CathInfo who has never been guilty of detraction?  Ever, in the slightest manner?
    I find that very hard to believe.  Is there anyone who hasn’t discovered others know what you thought was private?  Probably not.
    What about calumny?  It’s more serious because it’s a lie. Anyone here claim total innocence?  Maybe after the age of accountability you blamed your sibling for damage in the home?  Calumny needn’t be as serious as accusing an innocent person of immorality to the priest.  Has anyone here never been calumniated by another?  

    Please, if anyone is innocent of ever committing either detraction or calumny, let us in on the secret of your holiness!  

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #37 on: July 06, 2021, 02:07:10 PM »
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  • For people that are superior to me in some aspect or another, I have always had admiration and fascination. I don't remember ever having envy for them or thinking that they were haughty or holier than thou. I have always tried to learn from people like that and emulate them. That is what made me what I am today. If God would not have put those people in my path, I would not be who I am today. I would be a totally different man.

    On the other side

    In my wild days, I had a girl friend that had sisters that were spectacular looking, one was a model on the cover of Cosmopolitan magazine. I would ask my friends why they would not come over to see me when I was with them, and they told me that they didn't like the girls because the girls thought they were high and mighty. I told them that they were totally wrong, that the girls actually were very simple people and didn't talk much so nobody would notice. None of my friends ever attempted to talk to the girls.

    and

    Friends always are telling me that so and so thinks his poop does not stink, that he looks down upon people. I tell them that they are totally wrong, that they are imagining something that is not there, that the person has no such attitude.


    Why is that? That one person sees someone superior to them in something and hates them, while another admires them and learns from them? I do not have the answer, but I do know that it enslaves a person in a prison of  his own making.


    Offline Marion

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #38 on: July 06, 2021, 04:45:59 PM »
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  • For people that are superior to me in some aspect or another, I have always had admiration and fascination.
    :fryingpan: :sleep: :facepalm: :jester: :pray:
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline Marion

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #39 on: July 06, 2021, 04:52:04 PM »
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  • Lasttrad, your ideas about “really living the Catholic faith“ are not really commendable.

    Come down from your high horse!
    That meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church. (Dei Filius)

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #40 on: July 06, 2021, 05:42:45 PM »
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  • As for your last statement, absolutely one can call out someone who is "objectively" holier ... in some respects ... for a "holier-than-thou" attitude.  Those Pharisees our Lord rebuked in the famous parable of the Pharisee and the Publican did in fact keep the law much better than the publican, but it's a question of ATTITUDE.  All of the saints, who had true holiness, considered themselves to be the least holy of men.  That's often been a point of discussion.  Was that false humility since it was clearly objectively false, and humility is truth?  No, they considered themselves the least holy because they had an acute awareness of their own failings, knew which graces they were offered and didn't live up to perfectly, etc. ... while they granted their neighbor the benefit of the doubt.  Perhaps they received fewer actual graces for some reason, perhaps were born into difficult circuмstances, had tendencies from their natural temperament that perhaps inclined them to certain faults, perhaps had tons of circuмstances and prudential considerations and other obstacles that prevented them from living as they should all the time.   ONLY GOD can judge souls at that level.  We can only judge objective right and wrong.

    So, yes, it's perfectly fine, depending on the situation, when motivated by true charity, to point out when people aren't living up the standards of holiness, either to help correct one's neighbor or else to encourage others to avoid those faults.
    Why yes, this is certainly what we Catholics should do.  However, was that the motivation in the other thread?  Was it really about fraternal correction?  That certainly wasn't the impression I got.  It seemed more like an opportunity to give LT his just desserts, a public lashing, a public gotcha moment as it were.  And then someone wasn't happy enough with the other threads:  he had to post yet another "αnσnymσus" thread about LT's faults.  It seems to me that those folks have a bit of reflection of their own to do.    


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #41 on: July 07, 2021, 07:37:37 AM »
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  • Lasttrad, your ideas about “really living the Catholic faith“ are not really commendable.

    Come down from your high horse!
    I think the writer above sacrificed himself to down votes to make a joke. Good show! It is spot on. This highlights the great flaw of internet communication, one can't see the person. If this person made that joke in person, one would understand it. It is the same with my online advice and the responses from the different people, one sees it as great advice and another as a personal rebuke from a Pharisee that thinks they are holier than thou.  However, if we were face to face they would really see the faces and understand the intentions and actually know and see how each one is.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #42 on: July 07, 2021, 07:41:00 AM »
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  • Why yes, this is certainly what we Catholics should do.  However, was that the motivation in the other thread?  Was it really about fraternal correction?  That certainly wasn't the impression I got.  It seemed more like an opportunity to give LT his just desserts, a public lashing, a public gotcha moment as it were.  And then someone wasn't happy enough with the other threads:  he had to post yet another "αnσnymσus" thread about LT's faults.  It seems to me that those folks have a bit of reflection of their own to do.    
    Like always, 2Vermont said it better than I could have. There is an example of someone that is superior in some matter that i would to emulate to improve myself. I always thought 2Vermont was a man.

    Offline MMagdala

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #43 on: July 08, 2021, 02:36:54 AM »
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  •  I always thought 2Vermont was a man.
    The first time I met her online on a now-extinct forum, I thought the same and told her I meant it also as a compliment!

    Offline dymphnaw

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    Re: Detraction - When are We Guilty?
    « Reply #44 on: July 08, 2021, 12:16:14 PM »
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  • Lesson learned:  

    “Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” (Mark Twain)
    What is it about your fellow chapel attendees that offends you so?