Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?  (Read 9591 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2022, 09:32:34 AM »
All valid Trinitarian baptisms are "Catholic baptisms".  Someone baptized by non-Catholics (remember, anyone can baptize validly, even an apostate) remains a Catholic until they attain the age of reason, at which time, if they embrace another religion (or no religion at all), they become at least material heretics, granted, through no fault of their own. 

It seems to me, then, that the Church creates a kind of legal fiction, by which those children are treated in Canon Law as never having been Catholics.  If it's not a legal fiction, then what is it?

It’s called obedience. The Church made the law and you are to follow it. The law can not be to your liking, but to use a disparaging term like “legal fiction” is not very edifying to say the least.

If you noticed, I questioned Ladislaus’ statement when he first posted it. When he showed me the Canon that proved his point, I accepted it without question.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2022, 10:30:42 AM »

Very good. Thank you for this!

Mortara case probably deserves a thread of its own.  Very interesting.  That actually contributed to why Napoleon III turned on Pius IX, without whose support it became impossible for the Church to hold onto the papal states.


Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2022, 10:44:15 AM »
I found this interesting post on another forum. The post has additional information regarding CCL 1917 for marriage.

https://isidore.co/forum/index.php?topic=133.0

Baptized in the Catholic Church: This term causes some confusion.  It is not a colloquial expression, but a technical term in canon law.  In principle, it has nothing at all to do with the actual minister or even the place of baptism but with the intent of the person who is seeking baptism (or in the case of infants, the intent of the parents who seek to secure baptism for their child).
 
Here is Woywod on the term:
 
Quote
"The term 'baptized in the Catholic Church' creates some difficulty, especially in cases of baptism administered by lay persons.  In the first place, if the father and mother, or at least one of them, are Catholics and adhere to the Church, the infant baptized at the request of the Catholic party by a non-Catholic doctor or nurse in a case of emergency may still be considered baptized in the Catholic Church, for there is but one baptism, and whether the reception of that baptism means the joining of the Catholic Church or of some non-Catholic denomination depends on the will of the person who has the right and duty to care for the welfare of the infant.  If neither parent adheres to the Catholic Church (i.e., if both are Protestants or apostate Catholics), but one of them consents to have the infant baptized by a Catholic priest, one must know whether some guarantee was given of the Catholic education of the child; if so, the child was by the will of the parent legitimately enrolled in the Catholic Church.  If such guarantee was not given, no Catholic priest or layman had the right to baptized the child, and it was not legitimately enrolled in the Church Church, except in urgent danger of death... The Committee for the Authentic Interpretation of the Code declared on April 29, 1940, that persons born of non-Catholics and baptized in the Catholic Church, but not raised as Catholics, are subject to the impediment of disparity of cult according to Canon 1070 when they marry unbaptized persons" (Woywod p. 713-14).




Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2022, 10:45:33 AM »
It’s called obedience. The Church made the law and you are to follow it. The law can not be to your liking, but to use a disparaging term like “legal fiction” is not very edifying to say the least.

If you noticed, I questioned Ladislaus’ statement when he first posted it. When he showed me the Canon that proved his point, I accepted it without question.

"Legal fiction" is not a disparaging term.  It's a term from common law.  There's nothing disedifying about it.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_fiction

Another such legal fiction is treating children from putative marriages, later declared null, as being legitimate.  If the marriage never existed, then of course they are bastards (another term that is merely a neutral statement of fact, viz. a child born out of wedlock, but that has become disparaging in common parlance), but for many reasons, the Church declares them to be considered legitimate.  Aside from the social stigma attaching to bastardy, there could be some secular jurisdictions that would look to the Church, in the case of Catholics anyway, to decide whether a child is legitimate or not.  (And it's never the child's fault.)

A sanatio in radice is another example of a legal fiction in ecclesiastical law.

Offline Quo vadis Domine

  • Supporter
Re: Are People Married In Non Catholic Ceremonies Really Married?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2022, 12:59:51 PM »
Mortara case probably deserves a thread of its own.  Very interesting.  That actually contributed to why Napoleon III turned on Pius IX, without whose support it became impossible for the Church to hold onto the papal states.

The Mortara case is interesting on several different levels. It’s one of the reasons the Jєωs hated Venerable Pius IX (A great man!)