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Author Topic: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.  (Read 16425 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2017, 11:58:40 AM »
It is just as easy to speculate that God provided Baptism to St. Emerantiana through an unseen miracle to supply His requisites for salvation, as it is to use our want of knowledge as proof of its dispensability. What we do not know is not a proof of anything.

If the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

St. Aiphonsus de Liquori tells us that there were approximately eleven million martyrs in the first three centuries of the Church's history. Out of these eleven million martyrs, and the thousands of others which have been recorded since by various Church historians, there are about ten cases in which the martyrs are reported to have died without baptism. In not one of these cases can we assert or conclude positively that these persons were not baptized.

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2017, 12:14:01 PM »
It's unbelievable.  We've got people here who are implying the non-eternity of Hell, the possibility of more than two eternal final places, the possibility of not going immediately to Hell, the possibility of soul and body being reunited before the general judgment, and now to top it off, we have the sacrament of baptism "through an unseen miracle."
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Kids, this is what confirmation bias does to you.  You turn around, look, and all of a sudden you've toppled half a dozen truths on the way to retaining your pet theory.
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Those of you with children who are first communion age hopefully recall, if you didn't already, that a sacrament is a visible sign.  "Invisible baptism" is not baptism at all.
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Just abandon this ridiculous proof, already.  Y'all are going to keep reading Trent without any deference to the catechisms, popes, theologians, saints, or any authoritative teaching mechanism of the Church anyways, that's where your bread and butter is, so stick to that.  Those "on the fence" who see you turning the most basic tenets of Catholic theology and doctrine on their head to retain your position aren't going to be won over, that's for sure.


Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #47 on: August 21, 2017, 12:19:58 PM »
What we do not know is not a proof of anything, yet if the Church honors anyone as a saint, according to her own teaching, the presumption must be that the saint was baptized.

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #48 on: August 21, 2017, 12:32:07 PM »
Strange how all these pious stories are considered infallible, but the stories that tell a different slant are not worth the words printed since they are "not infallible" as the Benedict Center or Diamond Bros. see it.  

:facepalm:
You were down thumbed 6 times, a sure sign the feeneyites cannot refute you.

Re: People needing baptism, raised from the dead, etc.
« Reply #49 on: August 21, 2017, 12:35:46 PM »
Quite the contrary, we don't consider any of these "infallible".  You, on the other hand, present your stories as dogmatic proof when they're not.  These are just illustrations of how God does arrange matters, sometimes even miraculously, to bring the Sacrament to His elect.
We present authoritative and infallible TEACHINGS from approved sources united on the issue while you settled for STORIES.  You put more weight on stories than teaching if the teaching goes against what your monumental intellectual pride wishes to believe.

Do you believe you would be deprived of the Beatific Vision of you were martyred before you were baptized?  Do you believe your salvation could be called into question.