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Author Topic: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire  (Read 13053 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2018, 11:12:11 AM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on April 23, 2018, 10:14:09 AM
Honestly, I do not see why any strict EENSer debates with these deniers of the need for baptism, the need for desire for baptism, the need to be a Catholic, the need to believe in Jesus Christ and the Holy Trinity. Their defending of BOD of the catechumen is just a smoke screen for total unbelief in EENS.

Correct, the ardent promotion of BoD and denunciation of "Feeneyism" has always been driven by a crusade against EENS in general rather than by sympathy for the rare case of a catechumen who would die before Baptism.  Sure, St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine dealt with the subject ... in a couple paragraphs from thousands of pages of writing.  But for a lot of the Cushingites today it's become their life's mission to promote BoD.

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Offline RomanTheo

Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2018, 11:29:37 AM »
Quote from: Neil Obstat on April 21, 2018, 08:10:18 PM


As for BoD and BoB, his position was that since we cannot know the state of a soul of a dying person because we cannot know his interior disposition (only God can discern the thought of our hearts), what becomes of such souls who have not been baptized is left to the providence of God. It's not OUR DECISION what happens. It's God's decision.
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BoB and BoD advocates like "RomanTheo" above are wont to rip that prerogative of God away from Him and make it their own.

That is absurd.  Professing the Church's doctrine concerning baptism of desire, as understood and explained by every theologian since the Council of Trent, is not ripping any prerogative away from God. On the contrary, claiming that God cannot save a person who has not been baptized by water is both removing the "decision" from God, and restricting His ability to justify soul by requiring a created reality, upon which He is dependent.  Such an idea subjects the Creator to a creature - the infinite to a finite.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2018, 02:16:58 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 23, 2018, 11:12:11 AM
Correct, the ardent promotion of BoD and denunciation of "Feeneyism" has always been driven by a crusade against EENS in general rather than by sympathy for the rare case of a catechumen who would die before Baptism.  Sure, St. Thomas and St. Robert Bellarmine dealt with the subject ... in a couple paragraphs from thousands of pages of writing.  But for a lot of the Cushingites today it's become their life's mission to promote BoD.
Do you see how they avoid mentioning their real belief, this Theo character must be the same guy that used the avatar of The Cure of Ars. 
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2018, 04:50:48 PM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on April 23, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
Do you see how they avoid mentioning their real belief, this Theo character must be the same guy that used the avatar of The Cure of Ars.

Yeah, this could quite possibly be LoT again.  He's signed up under a couple different names over time.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2018, 04:52:59 PM »
Quote from: RomanTheo on April 23, 2018, 11:29:37 AM
and restricting His ability to justify soul by requiring a created reality, upon which He is dependent.  Such an idea subjects the Creator to a creature - the infinite to a finite.

Idiot.  WE are not restricting anything.  We're talking about the restrictions that God has placed on us, not the other way around, and understanding the conditions for salvation that He has laid down.  If God said that we could only be saved by smearing Jello Pudding on the tips of our noses, then we would be bound by that.
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