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Author Topic: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire  (Read 13080 times)

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #40 on: April 23, 2018, 09:19:38 AM »
Happenby: Nope.  In fact, its necessary for the person representing the child to desire the sacrament on behalf of the child. 

Reply: Incorrect. The person representing the child (the godparents) professes the faith for the child; they do not desire baptism for him.

If it were necessary for a child to have a representative "desire baptism" on their behalf, the baptism of an infant with no one but the minister of the sacrament present would be invalid.  What we see is that your personal interpretation of the canons of Trent is leading you from one error to another.


Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #41 on: April 23, 2018, 09:26:18 AM »
Nope.  You're missing the ontological change that takes place in the soul which then allows reception of the Holy Eucharist.  So you reduce it to some kind of "admission pass" to receive Holy Communion.
Ladislaus, think about what you are arguing. Do you really believe a passive potency makes a person an adopted child of God, rather than the supernatural habit of sanctifying grace, which is a created participation in the life of God Himself?  
We are adopted children of God when we share in the divine nature of God, not when we possess a passive potentiality.  


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2018, 09:35:35 AM »
Ladislaus, think about what you are arguing. Do you really believe a passive potency makes a person an adopted child of God, rather than the supernatural habit of sanctifying grace, which is a created participation in the life of God Himself?  
We are adopted children of God when we share in the divine nature of God, not when we possess a passive potentiality.  

Again, for the 4th time, it doesn't suffice by itself, but is necessary.  You can't have something in actu without first having it in potentia.  In other words, the Baptismal character is a necessary but not sufficient cause.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #43 on: April 23, 2018, 09:36:56 AM »
Happenby: Nope.  In fact, its necessary for the person representing the child to desire the sacrament on behalf of the child.

Reply: Incorrect. The person representing the child (the godparents) professes the faith for the child; they do not desire baptism for him.

Well, you disagree with St. Alphonsus on that one; he teaches that the godparents vicariously desire and intend to receive the Sacrament for him.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: Ludwig Ott implicitly refutes Baptism of Desire
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2018, 09:42:27 AM »
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Thank you.
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I'm currently reading The Loyolas and the Cabots by Sister Catherine. You can't make this stuff up!
That book is the best book I've read on that whole charade. This paragraph is what always immediately comes to mind whenever this book is brought up.

"The strangest feature of this case is not, as might be commonly supposed, that some Boston Catholics were holding heresy and were being rebuked by their legitimate superiors. It is, rather, that these same Catholics were accusing their ecclesiastical superiors and academic mentors of teaching heresy, and as thanks for having been so solicitous were immediately suppressed by these same authorities on the score of being intolerant and bigoted. If history takes any note of this large incident (in what is often called the most Catholic city in the United States) it may interest historians to note that those who were punished were never accused of holding heresy, but only of being intolerant, unbroadminded and disobedient. It is also to be noted that the same authorities have never gone to the slightest trouble to point out wherein the accusation made against them by the “Boston group” is unfounded. In a heresy case usually a subject is being punished by his superior for denying a doctrine of his church. In this heresy case a subject of the Church is being punished by his superior for professing a defined doctrine."