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Author Topic: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires  (Read 4574 times)

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Offline JPaul

Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2017, 08:59:04 AM »
Quote from: Last Tradhican on November 03, 2017, 08:27:27 AM
The BODers have to change dogma's meaning in order to teach what they do, however, there are too many dogmas to change. When you see even these few dogma's all together and how they respond to them in reality, it is truly comical. Nevertheless, their response is foundational to the Vatican II religion, without their end run around the dogmas by their "salvation by belief in a God that rewards", there would be no Vatican II revolution.
Men will alway seek to do what it is that suits them, and not what the Divine law obliges them to do.
As with the Protestants, they form their beliefs according to lower things such as sentimentality, and then they work at reading the meaning which they believe, into the Dogma to confirm it.
It is natural to the liberal mind to second guess the Divine Will.
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:06 AM »
I'm not sure Protestants can be saved by an inward conversion.

Quote
8 And I say to you: *Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the Angels of God. -- Luke 12:8

The Haydock Bible commentary:

Quote
Ver. 8. Whosoever shall confess me. By these words we are informed, that more than bare inward protestations of fidelity will be demanded of us; for he moreover requires an exterior confession of our faith. (St. Ambrose)

See http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id76.html

So that would indicate that St Ambrose only ever considered a catechumen (or at least someone who publicly professed the Catholic Faith) as a candidate for BOD.  And it appears to me that up to and including Trent, it was always in reference to catechumens that BOD was brought up.  The practice of instructing them before baptism is also an indication of the belief that premature death would not be an obstacle to Heaven.  If they could not go to Heaven in the event of death before the baptism ceremony, then for the sake of justice they should have been baptised first and then instructed (just like infants).  I couldn't find anything on the baptismofdesire web site which indicated that prior to Trent anyone believed that anyone who doesn't publicly profess the Catholic Faith (i.e. non-Catholics) could be saved or receive BOD but there is plenty of support for the idea that catechumens (who are not members of the Church prior to baptism) will be saved if they persevere until death.  But what that means in terms of how they will be saved is not specified precisely.  For martyrs they will be baptised in their own blood.  For the rest maybe they are baptised in their own desire?  But if they are baptised, there is no reason to say that the correct matter and form were not supplied.  And there is no reason to make accusations of heresy against people who say that it must have been the water and words of baptism.  On the other hand, to accuse people who do believe in BOD of heresy is rash since BOD has never been condemned by the Church.  Only the denial (direct or indirect) of the dogmas connected with justification should be condemned but it is clear that there are definitions of BOD which avoid conflict with those dogmas.
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Offline Clemens Maria

Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 11:22:05 AM »
Maybe I should give a definition of BOD which I think avoids any condemnation:

BOD is the concept that if a man perseveres to the end in publicly professing the Catholic Faith and in sorrow for his sins, Our Lord will give him the grace to be baptised before death.

In the case of catechumens we have no right to conclude that by their death before the scheduled baptism ceremony that they failed unless we have positive evidence that they did not persevere.
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 12:47:36 PM »
This thread is not about baptism of desire of the catechumen, for as you can see from the OP, the false BODers actually reject the idea that one even needs to be baptized by desire, or be Catholic, or believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. By discussing baptism of desire here, you are letting them off the hook. 
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Offline Last Tradhican

Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 02:15:46 AM »
Readers of dogmas work from the foundation of dogma. With readers of dogmas like myself, if you want to convince me about some subject that has been thoroughly defined, like EENS, you have to debate with dogma that is clear. This because dogma is the final judgement on a matter previously in dispute and must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them. DENY THEM.



On the other hand, with interpreters of dogma, the actually dogmas mean nothing, they must be interpreted by "an expert". From there they go seeking teachers according to their own beliefs. As anyone who is honest with themselves will see, these experts (Novus Ordo, SSPX, CMRI) have today concluded that the Athanasian Creed does not say that one must believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. If you want proof that dogmas MEAN NOTHING to them, and the Denial of dogma, there is not better example.


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