Author Topic: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires  (Read 1266 times)

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Offline JPaul

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Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2017, 08:59:04 AM »
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  • The BODers have to change dogma's meaning in order to teach what they do, however, there are too many dogmas to change. When you see even these few dogma's all together and how they respond to them in reality, it is truly comical. Nevertheless, their response is foundational to the Vatican II religion, without their end run around the dogmas by their "salvation by belief in a God that rewards", there would be no Vatican II revolution.
    Men will alway seek to do what it is that suits them, and not what the Divine law obliges them to do.
    As with the Protestants, they form their beliefs according to lower things such as sentimentality, and then they work at reading the meaning which they believe, into the Dogma to confirm it.
    It is natural to the liberal mind to second guess the Divine Will.

    Online Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #16 on: November 03, 2017, 11:12:06 AM »
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  • I'm not sure Protestants can be saved by an inward conversion.

    Quote
    8 And I say to you: *Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the Angels of God. -- Luke 12:8

    The Haydock Bible commentary:

    Quote
    Ver. 8. Whosoever shall confess me. By these words we are informed, that more than bare inward protestations of fidelity will be demanded of us; for he moreover requires an exterior confession of our faith. (St. Ambrose)

    See http://haydock1859.tripod.com/id76.html

    So that would indicate that St Ambrose only ever considered a catechumen (or at least someone who publicly professed the Catholic Faith) as a candidate for BOD.  And it appears to me that up to and including Trent, it was always in reference to catechumens that BOD was brought up.  The practice of instructing them before baptism is also an indication of the belief that premature death would not be an obstacle to Heaven.  If they could not go to Heaven in the event of death before the baptism ceremony, then for the sake of justice they should have been baptised first and then instructed (just like infants).  I couldn't find anything on the baptismofdesire web site which indicated that prior to Trent anyone believed that anyone who doesn't publicly profess the Catholic Faith (i.e. non-Catholics) could be saved or receive BOD but there is plenty of support for the idea that catechumens (who are not members of the Church prior to baptism) will be saved if they persevere until death.  But what that means in terms of how they will be saved is not specified precisely.  For martyrs they will be baptised in their own blood.  For the rest maybe they are baptised in their own desire?  But if they are baptised, there is no reason to say that the correct matter and form were not supplied.  And there is no reason to make accusations of heresy against people who say that it must have been the water and words of baptism.  On the other hand, to accuse people who do believe in BOD of heresy is rash since BOD has never been condemned by the Church.  Only the denial (direct or indirect) of the dogmas connected with justification should be condemned but it is clear that there are definitions of BOD which avoid conflict with those dogmas.


    Online Clemens Maria

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #17 on: November 03, 2017, 11:22:05 AM »
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  • Maybe I should give a definition of BOD which I think avoids any condemnation:

    BOD is the concept that if a man perseveres to the end in publicly professing the Catholic Faith and in sorrow for his sins, Our Lord will give him the grace to be baptised before death.

    In the case of catechumens we have no right to conclude that by their death before the scheduled baptism ceremony that they failed unless we have positive evidence that they did not persevere.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #18 on: November 03, 2017, 12:47:36 PM »
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  • This thread is not about baptism of desire of the catechumen, for as you can see from the OP, the false BODers actually reject the idea that one even needs to be baptized by desire, or be Catholic, or believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. By discussing baptism of desire here, you are letting them off the hook. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #19 on: November 05, 2017, 02:15:46 AM »
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  • Readers of dogmas work from the foundation of dogma. With readers of dogmas like myself, if you want to convince me about some subject that has been thoroughly defined, like EENS, you have to debate with dogma that is clear. This because dogma is the final judgement on a matter previously in dispute and must be taken literally, unequivocally, and absolutely. Hence, to attempt to modify or qualify them in any way is to deny them. DENY THEM.



    On the other hand, with interpreters of dogma, the actually dogmas mean nothing, they must be interpreted by "an expert". From there they go seeking teachers according to their own beliefs. As anyone who is honest with themselves will see, these experts (Novus Ordo, SSPX, CMRI) have today concluded that the Athanasian Creed does not say that one must believe in Christ and the Holy Trinity. If you want proof that dogmas MEAN NOTHING to them, and the Denial of dogma, there is not better example.


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #20 on: November 05, 2017, 02:17:21 AM »
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  • Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


    Athanasian Creed (4th Century)
    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
    42. and shall give account of their own works.
    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.



    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Online An even Seven

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 08:50:07 AM »
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  • In the case of catechumens we have no right to conclude that by their death before the scheduled baptism ceremony that they failed unless we have positive evidence that they did not persevere.
    As we know, there are no unforeseen accidents or incidents etc... for God, as he is omniscient. We also know that he does not command impossibilities. In light of this, wouldn't positive evidence that the catechumen did not persevere be that God did not preserve him until Baptism? After all, if God protects and governs ALL things that He has created and orders ALL things well (Vatican I), wouldn't His ELECT be at the top of the list for protection?
    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Dogmatic Decrees? We Will Interpret Them to Our Desires
    « Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 04:59:13 PM »
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  • When the OP dogmas are all put in one place, with the responses from BODers, one can easily see that they seek teachers according to their own desires.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


     

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