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Author Topic: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD  (Read 21106 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2025, 09:17:45 AM »
Quote
So the Sacrosanct Roman Church "believes, professes, and preaches ... that so much weight (strength / power) does the unity of the ecclesiastical body have that the Sacraments of the Church can profit to salvation for those only who remain in it [the unity of the body].

In other words, the Sacraments (including the Sacrament of Baptism) cannot even PROFIT TO SALVATION to those who remain outside the unity of the body, meaning that the Sacrament of Baptism cannot lead to the salvation of any who are not in the unity of the ecclesiastical BODY.  This passage alone renders heretical the entire "Soul of the Church" theory, where people can be saved by being in the soul of the Church but not in the body of the Church.  Yet BoD can only exist if the Sacrament of Baptism can profit the souls receiving it via the votum to salvation.
Great find, Ladislaus.  This agrees with Christ, in Scripture, where He tells us:


1.  He who believes, and is baptized, will be saved.  (Belief + Baptism = members in the Church)
2.  He who does not believe, will be condemned.  (No belief = no membership = damnation).

The "unspoken middle ground" are those who BELIEVE but are not baptized (i.e. BOD).  These are neither saved, nor condemned.  They aren't members in the Church but they die justified.  Which leaves them to Limbo.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2025, 09:47:27 AM »
Great find, Ladislaus.  This agrees with Christ, in Scripture, where He tells us:


1.  He who believes, and is baptized, will be saved.  (Belief + Baptism = members in the Church)
2.  He who does not believe, will be condemned.  (No belief = no membership = damnation).

The "unspoken middle ground" are those who BELIEVE but are not baptized (i.e. BOD).  These are neither saved, nor condemned.  They aren't members in the Church but they die justified.  Which leaves them to Limbo.

Yes, that passage confused me since I was a young man ... that in between.

It's also consistent with St. Ambrose declaring that those who have some kind of benefit from a repentance of sorts (like Valentinian) are, like the actual martyrs, possibly "washed but not crowned", where washing refers to a type of justification or at least non-condemnation, and crowning to entry into the Beatific Vision.  St. Gregory nαzιanzen teaches, in rejecting BoD explicitly, that there are some who are not good enough to be glorified (enter the Kingdom) but not bad enough to be punished.  It all fits.


Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2025, 10:02:41 AM »
Good points here.  I have always felt that the Council of Florence is the most definitive declaration when it comes to the topic of "Salvation outside the Church."  I watched this one guy, Christian Wagner, and he wrote an article on Salvation outside the Church, https://www.christianbwagner.com/post/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation-vatican-i-and-ven-pius-xii  Unfortunately, he is like so many others who begin with the dogma Extra Ecclsiam Nulla Salus, and then talk themselves into a corner by saying Extra Ecclesiam Salus Interdum, "Salvation outside the Church sometimes." 

I watched some of his Twitter talk on the issue and he maintained that "There was not a single theologian at the Vatican Council I who supported Fr. Feeney's position"...blah, blah, blah.  Too many guys today, who do not understand the issue, begin their reasoning with infallible definitions, only to end up arguing themselves into hypothetical corners.  The process should be the exact opposite, we reason from the hypothetical to infallible definitions.

Somewhere at home I have a Latin docuмent, pre-Vatican II, where the theologian says that the Blessed Virgin, although justified, needed to have the sacrament of baptism to be saved; because only the sacrament of baptism incorporates us into the Church. 

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2025, 10:06:40 AM »
I watched some of his Twitter talk on the issue and he maintained that "There was not a single theologian at the Vatican Council I who supported Fr. Feeney's position"...blah, blah, blah.

Right, so what?  Despite the big deal they raise about this, Father Cekada could only find 2 dozen theologians who even dealt with the subject, and the vast majority simply mentioned it in passing, "Yep, BoD".  There was almost no in-depth theological discussion of it since Sts. Bellarmine and Alphonsus, just a mere mention and regurgitation.

On the contrary, every single theologian (with one possible exception, Guerard des Laurier) concluded that Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass are Catholic.

BoD is nonsense.  Majority of Church Fathers rejected it, several quite explicitly.  St. Ambrose said something about Valentinian, but he linked his status to those of martyrs who are also "washed but not crowned" and elsewhere states, in "De Sacramentis" that even noble catechumens cannot be saved without receiving the Sacrament.  St. Augustine in a very youthful speculation (admits it's speculation) throws BoD theory out there, but then retracts it so forceful after his more mature anti-Pelagian days that his are some of the most powerful ANTI-BoD statements in existence.  St. Fulgentius his disciple rejects BoD and the EENS language of Florence comes largely from him.  After St. Fulgentius, there's not another mention of "BoD" until there's a debate among the pre-scholastics, Hugh of St. Victor (for) and Abelard (against).  Peter Lombard then writes to St. Bernard asking his opinion and St. Bernard very tentatively sides with "Augustine" (or so he mistakenly thinks), stating that he'd rather be wrong with Augustine than right on his own.  While he was a saintly man, obviously, theology was not his strength and clearly truth comes before being a respecter of persons, and St. Bernard very unjustly persecuted Abelard for "heresy" later because Abelard actually pioneered the scholastic method that St. Thomas later adopted, in his seminal work "Sic et Non", in which he did exactly what St. Thomas later did, examine a position and then with a view toward the CONTRARY positions, i.e. the objections, etc.  St. Bernard considered it impious to subject faith to this type of reason.  He was dead wrong, and Abelard right.  Abelard is really the father of the scholastic method.

In any case, after Peter Lombard went with St. Bernard, in his "Sentences", the manual used by nearly all the scholastics, and St. Thomas went with it ... it went viral.

But there's zero evidence of BoD having been revealed or being anything other than sheer speculation.  Nor has it ever been demonstrated to flow logically and necessarily from other revealed dogma.

Finally, the fruits of BoD are completely pernicious.  No good comes of it.  If God chooses to save some by BoD, that He hasn't revealed, then glory to Him.  But my not believing in it doesn't change what God actually does.  Meanwhile, believing in BoD ironically erodes belief in the necessity of Baptism, making salvation by BoD even less likely, for, as Father Feeney put it, people start to desire the desire for Baptism rather than Baptism itself.  It leads inexorably to religious indifferentism and EENS-denial.

At the very least, all discussion of it must be banned.  If I were Pope, before studying it for formal condemnation, I would immediately forbid any mention of BoD among Catholics and would order mention of it expunged from the works of St. Thomas, St. Robert, St. Alphonsus, and all of them.

Re: Council of Florence: a final nail in the coffin of BoD
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2025, 11:32:16 AM »
What about a version of Baptism of desire which would be God giving the soul the actual sacrament of Baptism while dispensing the need for water ? The person would then be incorporated into the Church, under the jurisdiction of the Pope, and have actually received the sacrament of Baptism itself, but in an invisible way. I'm not sure if this is compatible with sacramental theology though.

I know that this is probably not what a lot of the people who believe in BoD hold, but this seems to me like it would make it compatible with all of the dogmatic definitions on EENS. 

Also, since Latin doesn't have definite articles, maybe the Council of Florence meant that it is only in the Unity of the Body that some of the Sacraments profit for salvation, which could be excluding Baptism. 

For instance, if I say Occurrit ursis, how do you know if the person met all the bears, or only some bears ? I might be wrong because I'm no Latin expert though.