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Author Topic: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism  (Read 32175 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #80 on: September 19, 2023, 07:33:52 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on September 19, 2023, 07:29:02 AM
No, it is not related to their punishment, which isn't mentioned. It says they do not have "life." Yes, they do not have "life" in Christ:

"It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments."

The "it would hardly be inconsistent for him" is not a basis for ascribing actual belief of a position to St. Augustine or anyone else. Take a moment to think about the absurdity of such a claim. 

This thread concerns what St. Augustine said and affirmed about the punishment of infants who die without baptism.


Actually, Marulus, if you insist on seeing this as relevant to the "punishment" of the infants, the only "punishment" implicated is denial of eternal "life" with Christ - i.e., the deprivation of the eternal beatific vision. 
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Offline Marulus Fidelis

Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #81 on: September 19, 2023, 11:08:04 AM »
Quote from: DecemRationis on September 19, 2023, 07:29:02 AM
No, it is not related to their punishment, which isn't mentioned. 
I acknowledged that. There's nothing wrong with my post.
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #82 on: September 19, 2023, 01:16:44 PM »
Quote from: Marulus Fidelis on September 19, 2023, 11:08:04 AM
I acknowledged that.

You did. My "no" was meant this way: If you said, "this is not related to punishment," and I said, "no, it's not," I'd be agreeing with you. That's how I meant it.

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There's nothing wrong with my post.

Well, you posted here, believing it was relevant to the topic of punishment, and then said:


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This gives us an insight into Augustine's mind - he does not shy away from harsh doctrine. It would hardly be inconsistent for him to consign infants to positive punishments.

Forgive me if I misread, but it appears you think your citation's relevance is in supporting a view that Augustine had a "harsh doctrine" of "positive punishments" for infants.

I think that view certainly grossly overstated, and contains a poor attribution to Augustine in the sense (taken as true by assumption) that Augustine consigned these infants to some kind of physical torment in the "fires" of hell. Looking at his actual quotes on the fate of these infants, that view goes beyond what Augustine actually said and thought - which must be based on what he said, from our non-omniscient perspective.

I'm sorry if I read your post as an attempt to lend some support to that false view (false IMHO and for reasons discussed in this thread, and on the basis of what the saint actually said).
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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine's view on the "punishment" of infants who die without baptism
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2025, 02:27:06 PM »
OABrownson1876 posted an article by O A Brownson which discusses, among other things, St. Augustine's position on infants who die without baptism:

https://www.cathinfo.com/fighting-errors-in-the-modern-world/'st-augustine-and-calvinism'-(catholic-church-on-hell-)-orestes-brownson/msg927732/#msg927732

Brownson was of the same view I am regarding the bad rap St. Augustine has received regarding the "suffering" of infants who die unbaptized in hell. I quote from the article:


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He taught the eternal suffering of unregenerate infants, because he thought it a necessary consequence from the doctrine of original sin . . .


The infant child, although born in original sin, and therefore degenerate from its archetype of perfection, is thus, according to St. Augustine, worthy of love and reverence as a work of God.  It has no actual and personal sin, and if it dies, is forever incapable of committing any sin and incurring any demerit.  Its eternal separation from God as the chief good, as we have already said, involved in the mind of St. Augustine the necessity of suffering.  He admits this necessity however with evident repugnance, endeavors to soften it down as much as possible, and evidently would be glad to escape from it altogether.  An able expositor of his doctrine on this point in modern times, Antoine, explains this suffering of infants dying in original sin as levis tristitia.

St. Augustine's actual statements in this regard are quoted and discussed in this thread.

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