Author Topic: Catechism Books that Teach and Condemn Baptism of Desire (Read 22883 times)

crossbro · « **Reply #30 on:** January 25, 2014, 01:06:24 PM »

Quote from: Michael93

Quote from: crossbro
The reason I compiled this list was to show that baptism of desire has been universally taught to Catholics for a long time. Also, I’m not sure why you guarantee that no catechism before the 20th century taught an “implicit desire” for baptism would be sufficient (St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus both taught it well before the 20th century). Have you looked through all the books in the list? At any rate, when speaking of baptism of desire, has anyone ever said that an implicit desire for baptism would not be sufficient? I’ve never seen anyone say that.

It is in my previous post:

Faerber Baltimore Catechism 1942:

Quote
Baptism of desire: love of God, perfect contrition for sin, which include the desire to receive baptism.

Right, and that desire for baptism can be implicit or explicit.

I doubt I have perfect contrition form sin and I went to confession 35 times last year. Anyone who thinks they have perfect contrition is crazy.

You have to believe in God...

and you have to desire baptism specifically- Good luck, bucko

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #31 on:** January 25, 2014, 05:03:52 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Stubborn

Yes, here is the de fide condemnation of a BOD from Trent:

Quote from: Trent
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone [aka a BOD], the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Actually, the quote provided is from the Seventh Session of the Council under the heading of "On the Sacraments in General".

Yes, Baptism IS a sacrament.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

This is an odd question to ask. Is there something that I have said that would lead you to believe I believe other than what the Church teaches?

To answer your question directly, I, personally, could not imagine salvation being possible without the Sacraments, all the while, I know "the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.) " At the same time, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

In my own observation, God extends the graces necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation, and as He would so do this for me, I am confident that He does this for everyone. I am comforted in the truth of God's Salvific Will for us, in that He originally created us to be with Him, eternally, and it is only through our own deliberate actions that we separate ourselves from Him. God knows our hearts, He can distinguish the innocent from the guilty. The bottom line here is that - No one was ever created by God destined for damnation, quite the opposite in fact.

Ambrose · « **Reply #32 on:** January 25, 2014, 05:14:14 PM »

Michael93 wrote:

Quote

At any rate, when speaking of baptism of desire, has anyone ever said that an implicit desire for baptism would not be sufficient? I’ve never seen anyone say that.

Don't expect them to answer this, all of them rely on themselves as authorities, not the Doctors of the Church and the commissioned theologians.

All Doctors and approved theologians who have spoken on implicit desire teach it clearly. The Holy Office in its 1949 letter approved by Pius XII taught it clearly.

Sunbeam · « **Reply #33 on:** January 26, 2014, 03:36:43 PM »

Quote from: Michael93

If anybody knows of a catechism book I didn't include in the list, please let me know and I'll be happy to add it.

Michael,
I like your idea of compiling a bibliography. Here, arranged in chronological order, is my contribution to it. Not all of the sources that I have given are catechisms in the commonly-understood meaning of the term, but they are all grist to the mill. I've tried to leave out duplicates, but I may have missed a few.

Catechisms [and other sources] that teach Baptism of Desire:

1. Saint Augustine (354-430). The City Of God. Book XIII. In Philip Schaff (ed). A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of the Christian Church. Vol. II. St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine (Buffalo: Christian Literature Co, 1887). See: Chapter 7.

2. Saint Augustine (354-430). On Baptism, Against The Donatists. Book IV. In Philip Schaff (ed). A Select Library of The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of The Christian Church. The Seven Books of Augustin, Bishop of Hippo, On Baptism, Against the Donatists, trans. by J. R. King. (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1887). See: Chapter 21.—29.

3. Peter Lombard (c.1100-c.1160). Quatuor Libri Sententiarum. Book IV, Distinctions I-XXVI. In Elizabeth Frances Rogers. Peter Lombard and the Sacramental System (New York,1917).
See: “Appendix: Translation of Book IV, Distinctions I-XXVI of the Quatuor Libri Sententiarum of Peter the Lombard.” pp. 98-101.

4. Pope Gregory IX. Decretalium Compilatio (1234). See: Lib.III, Tit. XLVIII, Cap.II.

5. Saint Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274). Summa Theologica. See: IIIa q. 68 a. 2.

6. English College of Rheims. The New Testament of Jesus Christ, Translated Faithfully into English (Rheims: John Fogny, 1582). See: Annotations pp. 222, 224.

7. Laurence Vaux. A Catechisme or Christian Doctrine. 1583. (Manchester, England: The Chetham Society, 1885 reprint). See: p. 53.

8. Joannes Chapeauville. Catechismi Romani Elucidatio Scholastica, (Leodii: Henricus Hovius, 1600). See: p. 235.

9. François Aimé Pouget. Instructions générales en forme de catéchisme (Paris: Guillaume Vandive, 1706).
Imprimatur: Charles-Joachim Colbert, Evêque de Montpellier. 2 June 1701.
See: Part 3 (De la grace), Sec.1, Ch. 2 (Du Baptême) p. 14.

10. Pierre Collot. Doctrinal and scriptural catechism, or, Instructions on the principal truths of the Christian religion, trans. by J. Sadlier. (New York: D. & J. Sadlier, 1862).
With the approbation of the Most Rev. John Hughes, D.D., Archbishop of New York.
See: pp. 153-155.

11. Richard Challoner (1691-1781). The Catholic Christian Instructed in the Sacraments, Sacrifice, Ceremonies, and Observances of the Church. (Baltimore: John Murphy & Co, 1852). See: p. 18 f.

12. Jean-Baptiste Lasausse. Explication du catéchisme a l'usage de toutes les églises de l'Empire Français. Cinquieme Edition. (Paris: H. Nicole, 1810)
Approved by Jean-Baptiste Cardinal De Bellot, Archbishop of Paris. See p. 456.

13. Claude Fleury, Abbot of Loc-Dieu, (1640-1723). Historical Catechism; containing a summary of the Sacred History and Christian Doctrine (Dublin: Richard Coyne, 1834). See pp. 209-210.

14. Jean Gaume. Catechism of Perseverance, trans. by Rev. F. B. Jamison. Fiftieth Edition, revised and enlarged. (Boston: Thomas B. Noonan & Co, 1850)
English translation published with the approbation of the Most Rev. Archbishop of Baltimore.
Recommended by +Martin J., Bishop of Louisville; +Michael, Bishop of Mobile; +Anthony, Bishop of New Orleans; +John, Bishop of Galveston. See p.209.

15. Anon. 1861. Manual of Instructions in Christian Doctrine. (London: Burns & Lambert, 1861) Imprimatur: +N. Card. Wiseman. Westm. Aug. 1, 1861. See pp. 276-277.

16. F. X. Weninger. A Manual of the Catholic Religion for Catechists, Teachers and Self-Instruction, Sixth edition. (Cincinatti: JohnWalsh, 1867). See: p.246.

17. Anon. (circa 1880) A Compendium of Catechetical Instruction, trans. by the Right Reverend Monsignor John Hagan (Dublin, 1910). See: pp.28, 52.

18. Henry Taylor Cafferata. The Catechism Simply Explained. (1897) See: No 261.

19. D. Chisholm. The Catechism in Examples. Vol. IV. Grace: The Sacraments, 3rd Edition. (London: Burns Oates & Washbourne, 1908) See: pp. 59-72.

20. Joseph Pohle. The Sacraments : a Dogmatic Treatise, Volume I : 1. The Sacraments in General. 2. Baptism. 3. Confirmation. Authorized English version, based on the fifth German edition, with some abridgment and additional references by Arthur Preuss. (St. Louis MO: Herder, 1915) See: pp.243-253.

21. O. R. Vassall-Phillips. Catholic Christianity or The Reasonableness of Our Religion, 2nd Edition. (London: Burns Oates & Washbourne, 1920) See: pp. 383-386.

22. Peter Geiermann. A Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine. (St. Louis, MO: Herder Book Co, 1930) See: pp. 69-71.

23. The Christian Brothers. A Companion to the Catechism Designed Chiefly for the Use of Catechists and the Heads of Families, Revised Edition. (Dublin: M.H.Gill & Son, 1938) See: p. 239.

24. Leslie Rumble & Charles Mortimer Carty. Radio Replies, Third Volume. (St. Paul, MN: Radio Replies Press, 1938) See: No 778, p.184.

25. Micheal A. McGuire. The New Baltimore Catechism and Mass, No 2 Official Revised Edition. (New York: Benziger Bros, 1953) See: pp. 141 f.

26. Francis J. Ripley. This Is The Faith. (Billinge: Birchley Hall Press, 1960) See: pp. 216-218.

27. N. G. M. Van Doornik, S. Jelsma, A.Van de Lisdonk. A Handbook of the Catholic Faith. (New York: Image Books, 1956) See: p. 261 f.

28. Charles Hart. Student’s Catholic Doctrine. (London: Burns & Oates, 1961) See: p. 264.

29. John Anthony O'Brien. The Faith of Millions: the Credentials of the Catholic Religion. (Huntingdon, IN: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing Co, 1963, 1974) See: p. 154 f.

Stubborn · « **Reply #34 on:** January 26, 2014, 06:15:29 PM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Stubborn

Yes, here is the de fide condemnation of a BOD from Trent:

Quote from: Trent
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone [aka a BOD], the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Actually, the quote provided is from the Seventh Session of the Council under the heading of "On the Sacraments in General".

Yes, Baptism IS a sacrament.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

This is an odd question to ask. Is there something that I have said that would lead you to believe I believe other than what the Church teaches?

To answer your question directly, I, personally, could not imagine salvation being possible without the Sacraments, all the while, I know "the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.) " At the same time, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

In my own observation, God extends the graces necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation, and as He would so do this for me, I am confident that He does this for everyone. I am comforted in the truth of God's Salvific Will for us, in that He originally created us to be with Him, eternally, and it is only through our own deliberate actions that we separate ourselves from Him. God knows our hearts, He can distinguish the innocent from the guilty. The bottom line here is that - No one was ever created by God destined for damnation, quite the opposite in fact.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #35 on:** January 26, 2014, 08:42:02 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Stubborn

Yes, here is the de fide condemnation of a BOD from Trent:

Quote from: Trent
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone [aka a BOD], the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Actually, the quote provided is from the Seventh Session of the Council under the heading of "On the Sacraments in General".

Yes, Baptism IS a sacrament.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

This is an odd question to ask. Is there something that I have said that would lead you to believe I believe other than what the Church teaches?

To answer your question directly, I, personally, could not imagine salvation being possible without the Sacraments, all the while, I know "the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.) " At the same time, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

In my own observation, God extends the graces necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation, and as He would so do this for me, I am confident that He does this for everyone. I am comforted in the truth of God's Salvific Will for us, in that He originally created us to be with Him, eternally, and it is only through our own deliberate actions that we separate ourselves from Him. God knows our hearts, He can distinguish the innocent from the guilty. The bottom line here is that - No one was ever created by God destined for damnation, quite the opposite in fact.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

Is there something wrong with you? I mean seriously, why are you acting this way?

Ambrose · « **Reply #36 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:28:46 PM »

Stubborn wrote:

Quote

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

crossbro · « **Reply #37 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:35:48 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

Ambrose · « **Reply #38 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:44:05 PM »

Quote from: crossbro

Quote from: Ambrose
Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I would urge you to continue reading on this subject. I recommend to you the excellent book:

The Catholic Church and Salvation
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton
Found HERE

crossbro · « **Reply #39 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:56:02 PM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I would urge you to continue reading on this subject. I recommend to you the excellent book:

The Catholic Church and Salvation
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton
Found HERE

Nope, I have a catechism that states the requirements for BOD, a concept which originated and was only applied to catechumens which explains the tenants of belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I don't believe in BOD outside of that. I also do not believe in Martyrdom applied for anyone not baptized unless they are catechumens who have received the Rite of Welcome.

Ambrose · « **Reply #40 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:08:15 AM »

Quote from: crossbro

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I would urge you to continue reading on this subject. I recommend to you the excellent book:

The Catholic Church and Salvation
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton
Found HERE

Nope, I have a catechism that states the requirements for BOD, a concept which originated and was only applied to catechumens which explains the tenants of belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I don't believe in BOD outside of that. I also do not believe in Martyrdom applied for anyone not baptized unless they are catechumens who have received the Rite of Welcome.

Your understanding of the matter is inadequate. Catechisms are the beginning, not the end of learning your Faith.

Why don't you just say, "I will believe Baptism of Desire, but as I do not understand more than what my catechism teaches, I will not deny what I do not understand."

crossbro · « **Reply #41 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:12:25 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I would urge you to continue reading on this subject. I recommend to you the excellent book:

The Catholic Church and Salvation
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton
Found HERE

Nope, I have a catechism that states the requirements for BOD, a concept which originated and was only applied to catechumens which explains the tenants of belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I don't believe in BOD outside of that. I also do not believe in Martyrdom applied for anyone not baptized unless they are catechumens who have received the Rite of Welcome.

Your understanding of the matter is inadequate. Catechisms are the beginning, not the end of learning your Faith.

Why don't you just say, "I will believe Baptism of Desire, but as I do not understand more than what my catechism teaches, I will not deny what I do not understand."

We could be having this same argument over the Immaculate conception, after all, Thomas Aquinas did not believe in it.

The primary argument against BOD would be found in the words of Jesus himself in the New Testament.

Ambrose · « **Reply #42 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:23:53 AM »

Quote from: crossbro

Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I would urge you to continue reading on this subject. I recommend to you the excellent book:

The Catholic Church and Salvation
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton
Found HERE

Nope, I have a catechism that states the requirements for BOD, a concept which originated and was only applied to catechumens which explains the tenants of belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I don't believe in BOD outside of that. I also do not believe in Martyrdom applied for anyone not baptized unless they are catechumens who have received the Rite of Welcome.

Your understanding of the matter is inadequate. Catechisms are the beginning, not the end of learning your Faith.

Why don't you just say, "I will believe Baptism of Desire, but as I do not understand more than what my catechism teaches, I will not deny what I do not understand."

We could be having this same argument over the Immaculate conception, after all, Thomas Aquinas did not believe in it.

The primary argument against BOD would be found in the words of Jesus himself in the New Testament.

The words of Our Lord must be understood as the Church teaches us to understand them. The contrary to that is private interpretation as believed by the Protestants.

crossbro · « **Reply #43 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:33:15 AM »

Quote from: Ambrose

Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Quote from: crossbro
Quote from: Ambrose
Stubborn wrote:

Quote
Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

No, as I have been telling you over and over again. The sacraments are necessary for salvation, although not all of them.

Regarding Baptism, the act of martyrdom prior to Baptism, or the desire for the sacrament accompanied by supernatural Faith and charity is a substitute for the sacrament.

Why is this so hard for you to grasp? The necessity for Baptism is absolute, but if one dies prior to receiving it, one can be saved through Baptism of Desire and Blood, as they are substitutes that cause most of the effects of the sacrament, which includes justification and the adoption of the soul as a son of God.

If you read St. Alphonsus without your agenda clouding your mind, this would be clear to you. St. Alphonsus illustrates both principles clearly in the commentary I just posted.

There is no such thing as a "super-natural faith".

BOD requires belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I would urge you to continue reading on this subject. I recommend to you the excellent book:

The Catholic Church and Salvation
Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton
Found HERE

Nope, I have a catechism that states the requirements for BOD, a concept which originated and was only applied to catechumens which explains the tenants of belief in God, perfect contrition, and desire for baptism.

I don't believe in BOD outside of that. I also do not believe in Martyrdom applied for anyone not baptized unless they are catechumens who have received the Rite of Welcome.

Your understanding of the matter is inadequate. Catechisms are the beginning, not the end of learning your Faith.

Why don't you just say, "I will believe Baptism of Desire, but as I do not understand more than what my catechism teaches, I will not deny what I do not understand."

We could be having this same argument over the Immaculate conception, after all, Thomas Aquinas did not believe in it.

The primary argument against BOD would be found in the words of Jesus himself in the New Testament.

The words of Our Lord must be understood as the Church teaches us to understand them. The contrary to that is private interpretation as believed by the Protestants.

And like I stated, my catechism teaches 3 tenants for BOD that is in line with the original teaching that BOD only applies to catechumens. Everything else is liberal over embellishment.

Unfortunately, if the Church, Popes, and councils want to be contrary and ambiguous then you have to go to the Gospels. if I am now a protestant then I am the end product of the poor leadership and dysfunctionalism of the RCC.

Stubborn · « **Reply #44 on:** January 27, 2014, 04:58:15 AM »

Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: JohnAnthonyMarie
Quote from: Stubborn

Yes, here is the de fide condemnation of a BOD from Trent:

Quote from: Trent
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;

and [if anyone saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone [aka a BOD], the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Actually, the quote provided is from the Seventh Session of the Council under the heading of "On the Sacraments in General".

Yes, Baptism IS a sacrament.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

This is an odd question to ask. Is there something that I have said that would lead you to believe I believe other than what the Church teaches?

To answer your question directly, I, personally, could not imagine salvation being possible without the Sacraments, all the while, I know "the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom 'the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior.'(Ecuмenical Council of Chalcedon in its letter to Pope Leo.) The words of Christ are clear enough: 'If he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you a Gentile and a tax collector;'(Mt 15.17.) 'He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you, rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects him who sent me;'(Lk 10.16.) 'He who does not believe will be condemned;'(Mk 16.16.) 'He who does not believe is already condemned;'(Jn 3.18.) 'He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.'(Lk 11.23.) The Apostle Paul says that such persons are 'perverted and self-condemned;'(Ti 3.11.) the Prince of the Apostles calls them 'false teachers . . . who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master. . . bringing upon themselves swift destruction.'(2 Pt 2.1.) " At the same time, "There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

In my own observation, God extends the graces necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation, and as He would so do this for me, I am confident that He does this for everyone. I am comforted in the truth of God's Salvific Will for us, in that He originally created us to be with Him, eternally, and it is only through our own deliberate actions that we separate ourselves from Him. God knows our hearts, He can distinguish the innocent from the guilty. The bottom line here is that - No one was ever created by God destined for damnation, quite the opposite in fact.

Do YOU say the sacraments are not necessary unto salvation?

Is there something wrong with you? I mean seriously, why are you acting this way?

I was going to ask you the same question but it seems there is something wrong with you since you cannot answer a simple yes or no question with a simple yes or no.

Now contrary to what St. Alphonsus teaches and contrary to what the Council of Trent teaches, Ambrose blows hot and cold out of both sides of his mouth in an attempt to cover all bases by answering both yes and no - which is no answer at all.