Author Topic: False BOD in One Paragraph (Read 19959 times)

Stubborn · « **Reply #175 on:** March 27, 2014, 05:43:42 AM »

Quote from: bowler

SJB's typical no answer end run.

If it weren't for the fact that it's a travesty, SJB and his fellow sacrament despiser's blindness would be hilarious.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #176 on:** March 27, 2014, 06:11:24 AM »

Quote from: JoeZ

Quote from: Lover of Truth
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SJB
There are literally hundreds of sources that support the proper understanding, here is one of many. Now you provide just one that either explains differently or calls out this "error."

He tries to make it seem as if we teach that those who are aware of the necessity of baptism can still just blow it off because it is "optional". He shows either his manifest ignorance here or his dishonesty.

Please,
awareness of the necessity of baptism is not mentioned here.

Trent; The Fifth Session, Decree Concerning Original Sin (#3)

If anyone asserts, that this sin of Adam, --which in its origin is one, and being transfused into all by propagation, not by imitation, is in each one as his own, -- is taken away either by the powers of human nature, or by any other remedy than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath reconciled us to God in His own blood, made unto us justice, sanctification, and redemption; or if he denies that the said merit of Jesus Christ is applied, both to adults and to infants, by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the church; let him be anathema: For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved. Whence that voice; Behold the Lamb of God behold Him who taketh away the sins of the world; and that other; As many as have been baptized, have put on Christ.

Thank you for your time and God bless,
JoeZ

I stand by the above statement repeated below regarding bowler

Quote

He tries to make it seem as if we teach that those who are aware of the necessity of baptism can still just blow it off because it is "optional". He shows either his manifest ignorance here or his dishonesty.

bowler · « **Reply #177 on:** March 27, 2014, 08:29:57 AM »

bowler · « **Reply #178 on:** March 27, 2014, 08:45:25 AM »

Two non-answer end runs and my response in red

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He tries to make it seem as if we teach that those who are aware of the necessity of baptism can still just blow it off because it is "optional".

"Those who are aware" is the key to unlocking this pluralist non-answer. He is saying that people can be saved who have no explicit desire to be baptized, no explicit desire to be martyred, no explicit desire to be Catholic, and no explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity, if they are not aware that these are the only means of salvation. In other words he is teaching exactly what this thread accuses him of, and he is trying to deny it.

Quote

I don't dispute that explicit belief in the four items is the common teaching and that's why I hold it myself.

This is a total non-answer end run, akin to being accused of being a communist , and responding with:

"I don't dispute that capitalism, communism, and socialism are the common forms of government, that's why I hold it myself".

It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD, that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that.

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SJB
Please provide ONE SINGLE source that explains what you believe

Please get some glasses, you keep asking the same question and I keep quoting clear dogma, the Athanasian Creed, and St. Thomas Aquinas.
Moreover, I keep telling you that not one father, doctor, saint or council ever taught that one can be saved without explicit belief in Christ and the Trinity

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: bowler

It's obvious to anyone who is honest about this subject of BOD, that the subject of this tread is that to be saved by baptism of desire, one must have explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Trinity. ALL of you BODers are denying that. They are denying clear dogma.

The Subject of this Thread: BODers say anyone can be saved witout explicit belief in Christ

DOGMA:

Quote
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like you, for you have no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase you one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.

If you will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince you that you are wrong. Be prepared though that if this clear dogma does not mean what it clearly says, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And you might as well go talk to yourself.

BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)

BODers deny Creeds

Athanasian Creed
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

BODers deny St. Thomas Aquinas:

St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)

Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)