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Author Topic: Bishop Williamson on Feeneyites  (Read 924 times)

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Re: Bishop Williamson on Feeneyites
« Reply #55 on: Yesterday at 03:44:27 PM »
On top of my previous comment, you mentioned "heretic" which, by definition, are already baptized individuals that reject one or more doctrines of the faith. So I don't see how baptism of blood or desire apply to them.
This quote, if you notice, is speaking of salvation, not of baptism. 

It is saying that no one can be saved even if he sheds his blood for Christ, because our works are nothing if done without Faith, and therefore without supernatural charity, the latter of which can only be had if one possesses the true Faith.

Catechumens who die for the Faith are by that very fact part of the Church. The act of dying for the Faith IS their entrance into the Church.

The Holy Innocents are a perfect example of this. True, this was before the law of baptism was promulgated, but do not act like this concept is inconsistent with sound theology, because it certainly is not.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Bishop Williamson on Feeneyites
« Reply #56 on: Yesterday at 04:38:00 PM »
But which one is it though? Is it a theological error to reject it? Or mortal sin? If it was such a big deal I think the theologians wouldn't be all over the board in terms of what the penalty is.

I'm by no means an expert on theological notes, but isn't theological error less than heresy? It's heresy that places one outside the Church. The majority of these theologians hold denial of BoD to be less than heresy. If the Church not only hasn't pronounced Feeneyites heretics, and theologians can't even agree on what denial of BoD is, there is no basis for holding Feeneyites to be heretics beside individual, non-binding personal opinion. 

So Catholics who deny communion with Feeneyites would seem to be guilty of excessive, ah, zeal, and actually schism. Doesn't Bishop Sanborn's group do this?

Just another example of the mess we are in in this post-Vatican II Apostasy. 


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Bishop Williamson on Feeneyites
« Reply #57 on: Yesterday at 10:46:19 PM »
So, not only is the rejection of something that's "theologically certain" not heresy, but the theological note is also just opinion.  Most of Father Cekada's list did not even qualify it as theologically certain.

Now, those who hold that its denial has the note of heresy based it on the belief that it contradicts the Council of Trent.

Now, the problem with this is that ... Father Feeney never denied that justification by "desire", which is precisely what Trent teaches.

Nor is this semantics, or just something Father Feeney made up, but the well respected post-Tridentine theologian Melchior Cano, OP, made the same distinction, holding that infidels, for instance, could be justified but not saved ... something that was pointed out by the Conciliar "Cardinal" Avery Dulles, who had been a friend of Father Feeney.  I looked up the reference in Latin, and it was spot on.  Similarly, in the oration for Valentinian, St. Ambrose states that unbaptized martyrs are "washed but not crowned", with the "washing" referring to the one effect of the Sacrament of Baptism, namely, the forgiveness of sins, and "crowning" referring to the other, the seal of the Sacrament.  That could be read precisely as a reference to a justficiation but not salvation in the thinking of St. Ambrose, especialy since elsewhere in "De Sacramentis" he explicitly teaches that not even the most virtuous Catechumen can be saved if he dies without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Thus, many, including those at St. Benedict Center, found this "contradiction" perplexing, but ... maybe it's no contradiction, but St. Ambrose's reference to "washed but how crowned" resolves the issue.

Now, some have then tried to argue from a proposition of Baius that had been condemned that it would be gravely erroneous to claim that those who died in a state of justification could end up not entering the Beatific vision, but if you look up what it is that Baius was teaching, it's some bizarre stuff that's not actually related to justification vs. salvation.

Now, the same folks who gaslight us for "rejecting St. Thomas", 98% of them reject St. Thomas by holding that salvation is possible without explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, including Father Cekada, who came up with that theological survey.

So, then, Father Cekada, what say you about something that was unanimously taught and believed for the 1500 years of Catholic history, including having enjoyed the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers, namely, that explicit knowledge of and faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.  If anything might be a teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium, that would be it.  But Father Cekada has not problem with a Franciscan and a couple Jesuits coming along and inventing the novelty of "Rewarder God" soteriological theory, and Father Cekada himself holds to that ... thinking that was OK to reject 1500 years of theological consensus.

Father Cekada and others gaslight about "Suprema Haec", but then ignore the decree from the Holy Office which affirms that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary by necessity of means for salvation?  And for all that they gaslight about "Suprema Haec" ... being obligatory and (for all intents and purposes) infallible, how many of them believe that it's proximate to heresy to deny geocentrism or that heliocentrism is heresy?  They just pick and choose what they want to believe.

Similarly, for about 700 years after St. Augustine, theologians universally believed the Augustinian position that infants wo die without Baptism suffer (albeit mildly) in Hell.  It wasn't until Abelard first questioned it, and then St. Thomas also agreed, that the notion of Limbo had been introduced, and now very few theologians adhere to the more severe opinion of St. Augustine.

This notion invented by Father Cekada that consensus among theologians constitutes some kind of rule of faith ... it just has no basis in reality, and Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejected it.  That's to say nothing of the fact that Catholic theologians unanimously approved of Vatican II and the New Mass as being esentially Catholic.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Bishop Williamson on Feeneyites
« Reply #58 on: Today at 12:54:22 AM »
So, not only is the rejection of something that's "theologically certain" not heresy, but the theological note is also just opinion.  Most of Father Cekada's list did not even qualify it as theologically certain.

Now, those who hold that its denial has the note of heresy based it on the belief that it contradicts the Council of Trent.

Now, the problem with this is that ... Father Feeney never denied that justification by "desire", which is precisely what Trent teaches.

Nor is this semantics, or just something Father Feeney made up, but the well respected post-Tridentine theologian Melchior Cano, OP, made the same distinction, holding that infidels, for instance, could be justified but not saved ... something that was pointed out by the Conciliar "Cardinal" Avery Dulles, who had been a friend of Father Feeney.  I looked up the reference in Latin, and it was spot on.  Similarly, in the oration for Valentinian, St. Ambrose states that unbaptized martyrs are "washed but not crowned", with the "washing" referring to the one effect of the Sacrament of Baptism, namely, the forgiveness of sins, and "crowning" referring to the other, the seal of the Sacrament.  That could be read precisely as a reference to a justficiation but not salvation in the thinking of St. Ambrose, especialy since elsewhere in "De Sacramentis" he explicitly teaches that not even the most virtuous Catechumen can be saved if he dies without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Thus, many, including those at St. Benedict Center, found this "contradiction" perplexing, but ... maybe it's no contradiction, but St. Ambrose's reference to "washed but how crowned" resolves the issue.

Now, some have then tried to argue from a proposition of Baius that had been condemned that it would be gravely erroneous to claim that those who died in a state of justification could end up not entering the Beatific vision, but if you look up what it is that Baius was teaching, it's some bizarre stuff that's not actually related to justification vs. salvation.

Now, the same folks who gaslight us for "rejecting St. Thomas", 98% of them reject St. Thomas by holding that salvation is possible without explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation, including Father Cekada, who came up with that theological survey.

So, then, Father Cekada, what say you about something that was unanimously taught and believed for the 1500 years of Catholic history, including having enjoyed the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers, namely, that explicit knowledge of and faith in Christ is necessary for salvation.  If anything might be a teaching of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium, that would be it.  But Father Cekada has not problem with a Franciscan and a couple Jesuits coming along and inventing the novelty of "Rewarder God" soteriological theory, and Father Cekada himself holds to that ... thinking that was OK to reject 1500 years of theological consensus.

Father Cekada and others gaslight about "Suprema Haec", but then ignore the decree from the Holy Office which affirms that explicit knowledge of the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary by necessity of means for salvation?  And for all that they gaslight about "Suprema Haec" ... being obligatory and (for all intents and purposes) infallible, how many of them believe that it's proximate to heresy to deny geocentrism or that heliocentrism is heresy?  They just pick and choose what they want to believe.

Similarly, for about 700 years after St. Augustine, theologians universally believed the Augustinian position that infants wo die without Baptism suffer (albeit mildly) in Hell.  It wasn't until Abelard first questioned it, and then St. Thomas also agreed, that the notion of Limbo had been introduced, and now very few theologians adhere to the more severe opinion of St. Augustine.

This notion invented by Father Cekada that consensus among theologians constitutes some kind of rule of faith ... it just has no basis in reality, and Msgr. Fenton explicitly rejected it.  That's to say nothing of the fact that Catholic theologians unanimously approved of Vatican II and the New Mass as being esentially Catholic.

The fact that all those theologians, the not insignificant majority of them, do not hold that a denial of BoD is heresy is telling. Very telling. I never really realized it until this thread, after all these years. It would be more accurate to say that I never saw need to look at it from the angle of BoD denial being heresy, since there are a lot of Feeneyites on this site and most of my engagement in the BoD controversy around here has been against the assertion that the actual receipt of the sacrament is necessary - which is contrary to the Catechism of Trent and all those theologians and doctors saying otherwise. I don't see how one can make that claim in light of the history of discussion of BoD by virtually all theologians and doctors post-Trent, and in light of the Magisterium's failure to censor such grave theological error, and in fact not only fail to censor it, but make those who publicly taught BoD contrary to Trent (so say the Feeneyites) its greatest teachers by bestowing the title of doctor on them (most notably St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus).

But now we're starting to see the opposite around here: rather than an attack on BoD, a claim that those who deny it are heretics and/or in mortal sin. If the theologians Father Cekada cites are reliable evidence, denying BoD is not heresy, but merely a wrong opinion or a theological error, and you don't segregate or separate from the body fellow Catholics who are in error.

The only way you can reasonably advance that claim is perhaps with a showing that the Holy Office letter (Suprema haec) altered the field and post-Holy Office letter theologians became unanimous in that denial of BoD post-Holy Office letter is heresy. Good luck with that - for various reasons. Most if not all of Father Cekada's theologians were pre-Suprema haec, and there's absolutely no legitimacy to the opinion that Feeneyism is heresy before issuance of the Holy Office letter: you're not a heretic for theological error or a wrong opinion. 

I'd be interested in seeing an argument that Feeneyism is heresy post-Holy Office letter. But, as I said, good luck with that. You'd have about 15 years between the Holy Office letter and the rot of the Vatican II session's close, so finding not only a convincing consensus, but even indisputably reliable theologians, would be near impossible.

So neither BoD nor Feeneyism is heresy. Both are, at worst, theological error, wrong opinion, to the opposing sides. To make either more than that, whatever side you're on, is itself error, and to act upon that error by separating yourself in your faith from other Catholics is schismatic.

The pro-BoDers have the Catechism of Trent as "ordinary Magisterium" on their side, but all of those theologians who found denial of BoD less than heresy wrote and opined after that Catechism, and their majority opinion that denial of BoD is not heresy defeats any assertion based upon the Catechism that it is.

So perhaps the best resolution for both sides on this issue is to shut up already.

That would suit me fine. :)

Online AnthonyPadua

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Re: Bishop Williamson on Feeneyites
« Reply #59 on: Today at 01:45:16 AM »
This argument is a really stupid understanding of the Council of Florence.

People who die for the one true Faith ARE united to the Church.

The Council there is excluding from salvation HERETICS who die for Christ. Such people can only have a human faith and love for Christ, and cannot be rewarded with salvation therefore. They can legitimately love Our Lord in a natural way, but on account of their heresy they are cut off from the Church, and are incapable of supernatural charity. This explains why we can see heretics are able to be kind to their neighbour. It is a natural charity, not a supernatural one.

 One who has the true Faith and gives up their lives for it (which is the most dear thing a human being has) possesses a supernatural Faith and therefore a supernatural charity, which can only be rewarded with eternal life.
No, Pope Pius 12th states that only those who are baptised AND profess the true faith are members of the Church. No one has the faith without baptism as baptism is the sacrament of faith, the supernatural Catholic faith, the virtue of faith, can only be GIVEN in/with baptism.