Jaynek, you really need to stop egging on these sɛҳuąƖly-insecure little men who feel the need to thump their chests.  You are thereby doing a great disservice to Traditional Catholic women.  Might as well start issuing a line of "Trad" wife-beater shirts.  I'm sorry to say, but I am well acquainted with their type ... know many personally, the Trad men who treat their wives like complete garbage under the pretext of wives having to obey their husbands.  And it sickens me.  These are nothing more than sɛҳuąƖly-insecure pathetic excuses for men who act the part of tough guy only against the defenseless.  They used it to "lord it over" their wives, inflate their own egos and sense of self-importance, and do not exercise loving authority over them ... for the good of their souls.

I would like to see a discussion of what is taught by the Church that does not involve ascribing bad motives to those with whom one disagrees.  Personal attacks have no place in logical debates.

If you can't see that Christian marriage brings a man and a woman into a relationship that rises above that of mere authority and subjection, then I truly feel sorry for you.  You are one of those self-hating women I take it.  It was as a result of ORIGINAL SIN that women became "SUBJECT" to men.  But, otherwise, before then, the relationship was more that of helpmate (as per the text I cited before).  And the Sacraments are different ways of undoing the damage wrought by Original Sin.  In Christian marriage, the woman is in a place of honor and not one of mere subjection, as a helpmate with great dignity.  You completely miss that in your analysis.

And, yes, I also think that it's wrong and immoral to "own" people as slaves ... as if they were your property.

Well said.

Women are seen by some here as property, as like a slave, with whom one must treat as a child. Sounds very Puritanistic to me.

If you can't see that Christian marriage brings a man and a woman into a relationship that rises above that of mere authority and subjection, then I truly feel sorry for you.  You are one of those self-hating women I take it.  It was as a result of ORIGINAL SIN that women became "SUBJECT" to men.  But, otherwise, before then, the relationship was more that of helpmate (as per the text I cited before).  And the Sacraments are different ways of undoing the damage wrought by Original Sin.  In Christian marriage, the woman is in a place of honor and not one of mere subjection, as a helpmate with great dignity.  You completely miss that in your analysis.

As I understand it, original sin makes the experience of being subject to one's husband often difficult and unpleasant. But I do not think that subjection is intrinsically a bad thing.  Relationships are often, by nature, hierarchical.  To be under authority and to obey another is clearly a good thing in some cases.

As I understand it, original sin makes the experience of being subject to one's husband often difficult and unpleasant. But I do not think that subjection is intrinsically a bad thing.  Relationships are often, by nature, hierarchical.  To be under authority and to obey another is clearly a good thing in some cases.

In your view, is a women who behaves badly to be treated and disciplined as a child would be disciplined?