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Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 47005 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #135 on: October 25, 2017, 03:23:36 PM »
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  • In your view, is a women who behaves badly to be treated and disciplined as a child would be disciplined?
    I think that in our culture that this would not be practical.  It would be illegal and considered grounds for divorce.  
    However, understanding that it is theoretically something permitted by Church teaching might help us have a greater appreciation of the husband's authority.


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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #136 on: October 25, 2017, 03:24:14 PM »
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  • No one ever said it was the same! The moral theology of the Church does not say it is the same!

    There is a certain amount of maturity expected of an adult woman. But liberals here on this forum think that woman are perfectly mature and almost never need correction.

    As BW says we just need to be "NWICE..."
    What is the difference between using corporal punishment on a child, and using corporal punishment on a woman, by her husband? If it's so obvious that the Church teaches that it's good to use corporal punishment on a wife, when needed, then it shouldn't be difficult to describe the difference. 


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #137 on: October 25, 2017, 03:25:08 PM »
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  • That is a separate issue from understanding what the Church teaches.  If Church teaching about the husband's authority allows for corporal punishment (as I think it does) then it does, regardless of how people might misuse that teaching to justify wrong actions.
    If there is, in fact, a problem among trad men of misusing their authority, it would be more effective to acknowledge that the authority exists and go on to discuss its proper limits.
    Wow ma'am, you're stellar; your hubs is one blessed bro seems like, at least thus far.
    "Lord, have mercy".

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #138 on: October 25, 2017, 03:26:10 PM »
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  • I think that in our culture that this would not be practical.  It would be illegal and considered grounds for divorce.  
    However, understanding that it is theoretically something permitted by Church teaching might help us have a greater appreciation of the husband's authority.

    Please describe what the Church allows regarding the use of corporal punishment on a woman by her husband. 

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #139 on: October 25, 2017, 03:26:26 PM »
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  • To be under true authority and to obey such as such is not a good, even hypothetically, in which case or cases?
    I cannot actually think of any cases.  I only said "some cases" to allow for overlooking something.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #140 on: October 25, 2017, 03:29:54 PM »
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  • As I understand it, original sin makes the experience of being subject to one's husband often difficult and unpleasant. But I do not think that subjection is intrinsically a bad thing.  Relationships are often, by nature, hierarchical.  To be under authority and to obey another is clearly a good thing in some cases.

    No, subjection is the direct result of Original Sin.  Original Sin didn't simply make it "often difficult and unpleasant".  Before that there was a naturally harmonious complementarity with an active role (man) and a more passive role (woman).  Subjection is a violent way to restore the natural harmony that was severed by Original Sin.  This has to be forced now whereas it was just naturally there before Original Sin.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #141 on: October 25, 2017, 03:32:49 PM »
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  • I think that in our culture that this would not be practical.  It would be illegal and considered grounds for divorce.  
    However, understanding that it is theoretically something permitted by Church teaching might help us have a greater appreciation of the husband's authority.
       And what of true tolerance, specifically of error? 

       There is a distinction to be made regarding what may be permissible in principle, and what is or should be avoided as imprudence, i.e on another principle, such as is the case with tolerating a evil to avoid or mitigate a greater evil.

       I think that this is part of what you are attempting to express, but please clarify either way.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    • "Lord, have mercy."
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #142 on: October 25, 2017, 03:34:09 PM »
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  • I cannot actually think of any cases.  I only said "some cases" to allow for overlooking something.
    Understood, as I do the same; thank you ma'am.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #143 on: October 25, 2017, 03:36:54 PM »
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  • TOTALLY FALSE.

    Absolutely true.  For the purposes of corporal punishment, in your view all that is needed to justify it is an authority relationship.  Someone in a position of higher authority can physically discipline a person subject to his authority.  Consequently, in the context of this particular issue, you make no distinction whatsoever between a wife and children.  Obviously there are differences (e.g. the marital debt, etc.) ... but for the purposes of THIS topic, the only principle you apply is the one of subordination, and in that regard there's no difference between wife and children.

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #144 on: October 25, 2017, 03:38:56 PM »
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  • No, subjection is the direct result of Original Sin.  Original Sin didn't simply make it "often difficult and unpleasant".  Before that there was a naturally harmonious complementarity with an active role (man) and a more passive role (woman).  Subjection is a violent way to restore the natural harmony that was severed by Original Sin.  This has to be forced now whereas it was just naturally there before Original Sin.
    Can you provide authoritative sources to support this view?  It is not how I understand Catholic teaching.
    Scripture tells us that the relationship between a husband and wife is like that of Christ and the Church.  There is no question that the Church is subject to Christ and that this is inherent in their natures, rather than as a result of sin.  A wife is to obey her husband as the Church obeys Christ.  How is either of these forms of obedience violent?

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #145 on: October 25, 2017, 03:39:29 PM »
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  • The moral theology of the Church says that it must be only for serious matters. Children can be spanked for venial matters.

    As for the practicalities, it all depends on the crime in question. Every marriage is different.

    Please cite an authoritative source that the Church says that corporal punishment must be only for serious matters. 


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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #146 on: October 25, 2017, 03:41:04 PM »
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  • Like the punishment of the state, there is liberty given to the discretion of the husband. What it does say is that it is for serious matters.

    Cite authoritative Church teaching on the above, please. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #147 on: October 25, 2017, 03:42:00 PM »
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  • The moral theology of the Church says that it must be only for serious matters. Children can be spanked for venial matters.

    As for the practicalities, it all depends on the crime in question. Every marriage is different.

    There is no "theology of the Church" on this subject.  Secondly, based on WHAT principle?  You're just making arbitrary statements.  Define the principles involved.  What's the distinction that allows children to be spanked for venial matters but women only for serious ones?

    So, then, what am I allowed to do?  Should I be allowed to spank her?  Or slap her?  How hard?  Can I punch her in the teeth?  Use a whip?  My belt?  What about tying her up without food and water for two days?  Maybe I should have her pick up dog poop with her mouth in the yard for using foul language?  Where's the line?  And based on what principles?

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #148 on: October 25, 2017, 03:46:19 PM »
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  •   And what of true tolerance, specifically of error?

       There is a distinction to be made regarding what may be permissible in principle, and what is or should be avoided as imprudence, i.e on another principle, such as is the case with tolerating a evil to avoid or mitigate a greater evil.

       I think that this is part of what you are attempting to express, but please clarify either way.
    I think that corporal punishment is permissible in principle, but probably imprudent in most cases in our culture.  But I have no trouble believing that there are rare cases in which it works well (as claimed in another post).

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    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #149 on: October 25, 2017, 03:46:57 PM »
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  • I don't have it to hand because those books are expensive and hard to come by.

    I am pretty sure it is in Prummer which is what all SSPX priests use.

    Your source is your priest. Go ask him.
    If the only source for your assertion is difficult to come by, then its obvious that it's not Church teaching. We're not a Secret Society.