Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife  (Read 184016 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Änσnymσus

  • Guest
Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
« Reply #105 on: October 25, 2017, 02:08:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So let's sum it up.

    No Magisterial teaching regarding the question.

    We have the opinion of St. Thomas.  St. Thomas is not infallible and has known to be wrong.

    Evidently the line of thinking is that due to the fact that women are subordinate or subject to their husbands, a certain amount of corporal punishment (to be defined by its proponents) is permitted in strict justice.

    I submit, however, that this does not take into account the dignity of the wife in a Christian marriage.  There's a union and a partnership in God that makes this something more than a natural relationship, and as such it is absolutely inappropriate and even sinful for a husband to subject his wife to corporal punishment.  Subjection in the strict sense is the result of Original Sin, but the Sacrament elevates the relationship to something more sublime.  To me it's a sin against the Sacrament to strike one's wife.

    So, for instance, it is never permitted for a son to strike his mother or any child to strike a parent.  Why?  Because we owe our parents HONOR ... as enshrined in the law of God.  Similarly, we owe our wives HONOR, not unlike that which we have for our parents.  Wives are the mothers of our children, and it's an affront to their dignity as wives for us to strike them.  It's a sin against the holiness of Christian marriage.

    So, yes, I disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas.  Sorry.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48032
    • Reputation: +28376/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #106 on: October 25, 2017, 02:10:22 PM »
  • Thanks!3
  • No Thanks!0
  • So let's sum it up.

    No Magisterial teaching regarding the question.

    We have the opinion of St. Thomas.  St. Thomas is not infallible and has known to be wrong.

    Evidently the line of thinking is that due to the fact that women are subordinate or subject to their husbands, a certain amount of corporal punishment (to be defined by its proponents) is permitted in strict justice.

    I submit, however, that this does not take into account the dignity of the wife in a Christian marriage.  There's a union and a partnership in God that makes this something more than a natural relationship, and as such it is absolutely inappropriate and even sinful for a husband to subject his wife to corporal punishment.  Subjection in the strict sense is the result of Original Sin, but the Sacrament elevates the relationship to something more sublime.  To me it's a sin against the Sacrament to strike one's wife.

    So, for instance, it is never permitted for a son to strike his mother or any child to strike a parent.  Why?  Because we owe our parents HONOR ... as enshrined in the law of God.  Similarly, we owe our wives HONOR, not unlike that which we have for our parents.  Wives are the mothers of our children, and it's an affront to their dignity as wives for us to strike them.  It's a sin against the holiness of Christian marriage.

    So, yes, I disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas.  Sorry.

    This is mine also.  Basically, when you submit a post and you get thwarted by the obnoxious "someone else has since posted" message, it clears the non-Anonymous checkbox.  That's what keeps tripping me up.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48032
    • Reputation: +28376/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #107 on: October 25, 2017, 02:13:56 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • So, for instance, it is never permitted for a son to strike his mother or any child to strike a parent.

    By this I obviously mean "under normal circuмstances".  Certainly, if your mother has lost her mind and is about to, say, kill an innocent person, then that would be an exception ... if it's necessary to stop the incident.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #108 on: October 25, 2017, 02:21:48 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Duties%20of%20Married%20People.html

    Quote
    II. Duties of the husband, 1. The husband should love his wife as a partner (Coloss. iii. 18, and remember that he holds in her regard the place of a father and a brother. 2. The husband should honor his wife, trusting her, treating her as a helpmate and not a slave (i Peter iii. 7). 3. The husband must provide for the decent support and protection of his wife and family, according to their state. 4. The husband must bear with the defects of his wife and charitably correct her when necessary. 5. The husband, by word and example, is bound to promote the moral and spiritual welfare of his wife and family.

    Corporal punishment is not compatible with holding a person in honor.  So it is not permitted for a husband to lay violent hands on his wife any more than it is permitted for a child to lay violent hands on his parents.  This is rooted in the teaching of Sacred Scripture in I Peter iii.7.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #109 on: October 25, 2017, 02:22:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • So let's sum it up.

    No Magisterial teaching regarding the question.

    We have the opinion of St. Thomas.  St. Thomas is not infallible and has known to be wrong.

    Evidently the line of thinking is that due to the fact that women are subordinate or subject to their husbands, a certain amount of corporal punishment (to be defined by its proponents) is permitted in strict justice.

    I submit, however, that this does not take into account the dignity of the wife in a Christian marriage.  There's a union and a partnership in God that makes this something more than a natural relationship, and as such it is absolutely inappropriate and even sinful for a husband to subject his wife to corporal punishment.  Subjection in the strict sense is the result of Original Sin, but the Sacrament elevates the relationship to something more sublime.  To me it's a sin against the Sacrament to strike one's wife.

    So, for instance, it is never permitted for a son to strike his mother or any child to strike a parent.  Why?  Because we owe our parents HONOR ... as enshrined in the law of God.  Similarly, we owe our wives HONOR, not unlike that which we have for our parents.  Wives are the mothers of our children, and it's an affront to their dignity as wives for us to strike them.  It's a sin against the holiness of Christian marriage.

    So, yes, I disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas.  Sorry.
    You are claiming that something is a serious sin that was the accepted practice for centuries.  Somehow, during all that time, the Church neglected to teach against it.  That seems rather improbable.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48032
    • Reputation: +28376/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #110 on: October 25, 2017, 02:24:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Duties%20of%20Married%20People.html

    Corporal punishment is not compatible with holding a person in honor.  So it is not permitted for a husband to lay violent hands on his wife any more than it is permitted for a child to lay violent hands on his parents.  This is rooted in the teaching of Sacred Scripture in I Peter iii.7.

    Me again.  Darn this anonymous nonsense.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #111 on: October 25, 2017, 02:31:02 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My understanding of Church teaching is that it is grave matter for a person to strike another in extreme anger. 

    So if a man is allowed to strike his wife, then it is only grave matter if it is done in anger?

    Or, is it only grave matter when a man strikes someone other than his wife? In other words, if he strikes his wife in anger, then it's not a mortal sin. But if he strikes someone other than his wife in anger, then it is a mortal sin.

    Is this how a priest in the confessional would see it? 

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48032
    • Reputation: +28376/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #112 on: October 25, 2017, 02:36:21 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • You are claiming that something is a serious sin that was the accepted practice for centuries.  Somehow, during all that time, the Church neglected to teach against it.  That seems rather improbable.

    Yes, that's exactly what I'm claiming.  At one point the Church taught that usury was wrong, and now it's "accepted practice" and the Church no longer teaches against it.  I'm afraid that there's no protection of infallibility regarding what the Church does NOT teach about.

    It's utterly incompatible with the honor and dignity of a wife for her husband to lay violent hands on her.  Period.


    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #113 on: October 25, 2017, 02:38:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My understanding of Church teaching is that it is grave matter for a person to strike another in extreme anger.

    So if a man is allowed to strike his wife, then it is only grave matter if it is done in anger?

    Or, is it only grave matter when a man strikes someone other than his wife? In other words, if he strikes his wife in anger, then it's not a mortal sin. But if he strikes someone other than his wife in anger, then it is a mortal sin.

    Is this how a priest in the confessional would see it?
    I have seen an examination of conscience that asked, "Have I struck a person over whom I do not have authority?"  so the relationship obviously makes a difference.  
    To strike a wife when she does not deserve it would be a sin against justice.  I suspect that the issue of justice is more important than that of anger in these cases.

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #114 on: October 25, 2017, 02:39:42 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I have seen an examination of conscience that asked, "Have I struck a person over whom I do not have authority?"  so the relationship obviously makes a difference.  
    To strike a wife when she does not deserve it would be a sin against justice.  I suspect that the issue of justice is more important than that of anger in these cases.
    I share Ladislaus's frustration with the way the "not anonymous"feature works.

    Änσnymσus

    • Guest
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #115 on: October 25, 2017, 02:42:51 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Amen. Thank you!
    [from a man]

    Jaynek, you really need to stop egging on these sɛҳuąƖly-insecure little men who feel the need to thump their chests.  You are thereby doing a great disservice to Traditional Catholic women.  Might as well start issuing a line of "Trad" wife-beater shirts.  I'm sorry to say, but I am well acquainted with their type ... know many personally, the Trad men who treat their wives like complete garbage under the pretext of wives having to obey their husbands.  And it sickens me.  These are nothing more than sɛҳuąƖly-insecure pathetic excuses for men who act the part of tough guy only against the defenseless.  They used it to "lord it over" their wives, inflate their own egos and sense of self-importance, and do not exercise loving authority over them ... for the good of their souls.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48032
    • Reputation: +28376/-5309
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #116 on: October 25, 2017, 02:44:37 PM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Jaynek, you really need to stop egging on these sɛҳuąƖly-insecure little men who feel the need to thump their chests.  You are thereby doing a great disservice to Traditional Catholic women.  Might as well start issuing a line of "Trad" wife-beater shirts.  I'm sorry to say, but I am well acquainted with their type ... know many personally, the Trad men who treat their wives like complete garbage under the pretext of wives having to obey their husbands.  And it sickens me.  These are nothing more than sɛҳuąƖly-insecure pathetic excuses for men who act the part of tough guy only against the defenseless.  They used it to "lord it over" their wives, inflate their own egos and sense of self-importance, and do not exercise loving authority over them ... for the good of their souls.  They are not arguing from a point of reason, but from emotion.  And it's usually because they have issues with impurity.
     
    me again

    Offline Jaynek

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4170
    • Reputation: +2318/-1232
    • Gender: Female
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #117 on: October 25, 2017, 02:46:44 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, that's exactly what I'm claiming.  At one point the Church taught that usury was wrong, and now it's "accepted practice" and the Church no longer teaches against it.  I'm afraid that there's no protection of infallibility regarding what the Church does NOT teach about.

    It's utterly incompatible with the honor and dignity of a wife for her husband to lay violent hands on her.  Period.
    Until around 100 years ago, corporal punishment was accepted in almost every area of life:  civil, military, domestic, and education institutions all took it for granted.  The feelings most people in our culture have towards corporal punishment differ from those of most times and places.
    While corporal punishment may feel, to people in this culture, incompatible with honour and dignity, I do not see any objective basis for such a claim. 

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #118 on: October 25, 2017, 02:46:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • http://catholicharboroffaithandmorals.com/Duties%20of%20Married%20People.html

    Corporal punishment is not compatible with holding a person in honor. 
    You've either never done time behind a gun, more generally under arms, or if you did it didn't stick.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2928
    • Reputation: +741/-787
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Proper Punishment for a Disobedient Wife
    « Reply #119 on: October 25, 2017, 02:48:57 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Jaynek, you really need to stop egging on these sɛҳuąƖly-insecure little men who feel the need to thump their chests.  You are thereby doing a great disservice to Traditional Catholic women.  Might as well start issuing a line of "Trad" wife-beater shirts.  I'm sorry to say, but I am well acquainted with their type ... know many personally, the Trad men who treat their wives like complete garbage under the pretext of wives having to obey their husbands.  And it sickens me.  These are nothing more than sɛҳuąƖly-insecure pathetic excuses for men who act the part of tough guy only against the defenseless.  They used it to "lord it over" their wives, inflate their own egos and sense of self-importance, and do not exercise loving authority over them ... for the good of their souls.
    ::)