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Author Topic: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass  (Read 6896 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2024, 06:33:56 PM »
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  • No, that's incorrect. 

    1.  Such an "allowance" was made for persons such as politicians in order to attend such for political, govt reasons.

    False.  This nonsense has been thoroughly debunked before.

    Not only that, in this case, we're not talking about something that's formally non-Catholic (as explained above).

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #16 on: November 04, 2024, 06:42:20 PM »
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  • I find it rather incredible how people insist on discussing matters that many Moral Theologians have discussed before.

    The question is quite clear-cut. It is ok to attend.


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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #17 on: November 05, 2024, 05:19:18 AM »
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  • So I've been invited to an Indult wedding and mass, and I'm just looking for guidance/info to help make a decision on attending/not attending.
    -I would consider the priests doubtful, as they are Novus Ordo priests, so reception of the Sacraments is a clear no.
    -The groom is a friend, so I want to do what is charitable without transgressing any Church law/teaching.
    Is there anything else I should consider, ie Church law on attending doubtful masses, active/passive participation?
    Yes, you should consider that before attending the indult, that you first and foremost in no way question the legitimacy of the NOM. It is something to consider.......

    Quattuor Abhinc Annos
    Quote
    Indult for Use of Roman Missal of 1962

    "a) That it be made publicly clear beyond all ambiguity that such priests and their respective faithful in no way share the positions of those who call in question the legitimacy and doctrinal exactitude of the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970."
    Fr. Wathen:

    "People should know that attending the Indult Mass represents a very serious compromise of their faith. Before a bishop allows the Traditional Latin Mass in one of his Novus Ordo churches, according to papal direction, he exacts this commitment: Those to whom the Mass is made available must give a verbal acceptance to the Second Vatican Council and to the new mass. Whether they know it or not, everyone who attends the Indult Mass makes the same implicit commitment. In the days of the Rome persecutions, a Catholic could escape martyrdom if he would burn the tiniest pinch of incense before one of the countless Roman gods. The commitment which the pope and bishops require is that pinch of incense."

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #18 on: November 05, 2024, 05:22:45 AM »
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  • Go and gift couple with a Bible. 

    Änσnymσus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #19 on: November 05, 2024, 07:13:49 AM »
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    Catholic moral theologians hold that one may attend, though not actively assist in non-Catholic worship.
    :facepalm:  The indult is not non-catholic.  Therefore the canon law allowance doesn’t apply. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #20 on: November 05, 2024, 07:46:49 AM »
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  • You can't attend the Mass, but (with a liberal reading of canon 1258) you could attend the wedding.  Canon law does not allow even passive attendance at the indult, which is either a heretical or schismatic rite.  Canon 1258 only allows passive attendance at funerals and weddings of NON-CATHOLIC services.  If you want to personally define the indult as non-catholic, that's on your own conscience, but strictly speaking it's schismatic.  Either way, attendance at a new mass or the indult mass is not allowed by ANY canon law and never has been.

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #21 on: November 05, 2024, 08:00:37 AM »
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  • What rubbish. Of course you can go to an Indult mass and wedding. For those falsely saying one couldn't, here is a refutation. If the Indult is a Catholic mass, one can always go to a Catholic mass, no issues. If it is supposedly a non-Catholic mass, either way one can still go, at least to assist passively at supposedly "non-Catholic" mass. In fact, the indult is Catholic, thus neither heretical nor schismatic, and one can go to said Mass and receive graces from it.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #22 on: November 05, 2024, 08:43:49 AM »
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    What rubbish. Of course you can go to an Indult mass and wedding. For those falsely saying one couldn't, here is a refutation. If the Indult is a Catholic mass, one can always go to a Catholic mass, no issues. 

    Canon Law disagrees with you.
    1.  Canon Law forbids attendance at schismatic rites.  The indult is schismatic because it's part of the new, V2 religion which rejects certain parts of catholic orthodoxy.

    2.  Canon Law forbids attendance at doubtful masses/sacraments.  The indult's priest is doubtful, as is the rite.


    Quote
    If it is supposedly a non-Catholic mass, either way one can still go, at least to assist passively at supposedly "non-Catholic" mass. In fact, the indult is Catholic, thus neither heretical nor schismatic, and one can go to said Mass and receive graces from it.
    No.  There is no allowance under Canon Law to "passively" attend a mass.  It is only allowed, for certain reasons, to passively attend a wedding/funeral.


    Quote
    Canon 1258
     § I. It is not lawful for the faithful in any way to assist actively or to take part in the religious services of non-Catholics.

    § II. Passive or merely material presence by reason of a civil office or for the sake of showing respect can be tolerated for a good reason, to be approved by the bishop in case of doubt, at the funerals, marriages, and similar functions of non-Catholics, provided that there be no danger of perversion or scandal.

    “A person who of his own accord and knowingly helps in any manner to propagate heresy, or who communicates in sacred rites [in divines] with heretics in violation of the prohibition of Canon 1258, incurs suspicion of heresy.” (1917 Code of Canon Law, Canon 2316)



    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #23 on: November 05, 2024, 08:49:31 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  The indult is not non-catholic.  Therefore the canon law allowance doesn’t apply.

    You're not one for distinctions, are you?

    1) Indult (= Tridentine Mass) is most certainly a Catholic rite (despite your broad equivocal use of the term "catholic")

    2) Those who offer the Indult profess the Catholic faith.  While they may or may not adhere to various errors, they are most certainly not in the same category as a declared formally-schismatic "church", such as the Orthodox.  Even the most dogmatic SVs like Bishop Sanborn acknowledge this distinction, stating that for this reason they are not required to make abjurations before becoming Traditional Catholics.

    While, objectivley speaking, the Conciliar Church is a (non-declared) non-Catholic institution, the Mass is Catholic and those who offer the Mass (and assist at it) do in fact profess Catholicism.

    Now, one is permitted to passively attend even DECLARED non-Catholic funerals / weddings (all other considerations aside, such as risk of scandal or corruption of your faith -- and the risk of scandal is almost non-existent these days, since NO ONE construes attendance at a wedding or funeral as an endorsement of the religion under the auspices of which it's taking place).

    Then, a fortiori, one may certainly attend the Indult Mass, and it is my opinion, even actively assist at it, since it's a Catholic Rite offered by those who profess to be Catholic (prescinding now from considerations regarding validity ... so, let's assume for the sake of argument that it's being offered by an elderly priest ordained before the New Rite(s) or by an ex-SSPX priest).

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #24 on: November 05, 2024, 08:58:34 AM »
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  • Anti indulters are borderline schismatic, especially if they are professing sedeplenists. remember one can commit schism in two ways (1) refusing to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (2) refusing communion with Catholics subjectto the Roman Pontiff, per St. Thomas. Prescinding now from considerations of #1, those who refuse communion with Indult Catholics word for word contradict and fall under #2, i.e. they refuse communion with Catholics subject to the Pope. Clearly erroneous and proximate to schism.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #25 on: November 05, 2024, 08:59:52 AM »
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    Then, a fortiori, one may certainly attend the Indult Mass, and it is my opinion, even actively assist at it, since it's a Catholic Rite offered by those who profess to be Catholic
    You could attend an Indult mass if the priest was CERTAINLY validly ordained (i.e. ordained before 1970, or ordained in the sspx).

    You could NOT attend an Indult mass for some random indult priest, as his orders are doubtful and the additional canon laws apply, which prohibit attendance at doubtful masses/sacraments, under penalty of grave sin.


    Quote
    “We cannot choose a less certain option, called by the moral theologians a simply probable manner of acting, that could place in doubt the validity of the sacraments, as we are sometimes obliged to do in other moral questions. If we were able to follow a less certain way of acting, we would run the risk of grave sacrilege and uncertainty concerning the sacraments, which would place the eternal salvation of souls in great jeopardy. Even the lax “probabilist” theologians admitted this principle with respect to baptism and holy orders, since the contrary opinion was condemned by Pope Innocent XI in 1679.


    Quote
    It is permissible in conferring sacraments to follow a probable opinion regarding the value of the sacrament, the safer opinion being abandoned.... Therefore, one should not make use of probable opinions only in conferring baptism, sacerdotal or episcopal orders."

    (Proposition 1 condemned and prohibited by Innocent XI, Dz. 1151)


    Quote
    Consequently, it is forbidden to accept a likely or probably valid ordination for the subsequent conferring of sacraments. One must have the greatest possible moral certitude, as in other things necessary for eternal salvation. The faithful themselves understand this principle, and it really is a part of the “sensus Ecclesiae,” the spirit of the Church. They do not want to share modernist, liberal rites, and have an aversion to receiving the sacraments from priests ordained in such rites, for they cannot tolerate a doubt in such matters. It is for this reason that they turn to the superiors to guarantee validity.”




    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #26 on: November 05, 2024, 09:12:47 AM »
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  • You could attend an Indult mass if the priest was CERTAINLY validly ordained (i.e. ordained before 1970, or ordained in the sspx).

    You could NOT attend an Indult mass for some random indult priest, as his orders are doubtful and the additional canon laws apply, which prohibit attendance at doubtful masses/sacraments, under penalty of grave sin.

    You fail to make the active/passive distinction.  If you have legitimate reason to attend (and absent any risk of scandal or corruption of your faith), one may PASSIVELY attend such Masses.  That's simply the theological consensus from before Vatican II.  Now, obviously you're entitled to disagree, but then you need to explain why instead of just stating your opinion.  I mean, I could be at a Catholic Unversity where we'd be studying non-Catholic religions (for legitimate purposes), and could show up at and attend some ceremony of theirs simply to observe it and take notes.  There can be various legitimate reason just to be "present", like a fly on the wall, provided that you're not actively participating in whatever they're doing.  Now, for many Catholics, there's a risk of being "sucked into" active participation ... so they would need to avoid it.  But if you can remain a passive observer, like a fly on the wall, effectively, there's no harm there.

    And certainly there's no Divine Law prohibition.  St. Pius X even granted permission for Catholic who lived in regions where there were no Catholic Masses, but only Orthodox ones, to even receive the Sacraments from the schismatics (Holy Communion and Confession).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #27 on: November 05, 2024, 09:15:18 AM »
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  • Anti indulters are borderline schismatic, especially if they are professing sedeplenists. remember one can commit schism in two ways (1) refusing to be subject to the Roman Pontiff (2) refusing communion with Catholics subjectto the Roman Pontiff, per St. Thomas. Prescinding now from considerations of #1, those who refuse communion with Indult Catholics word for word contradict and fall under #2, i.e. they refuse communion with Catholics subject to the Pope. Clearly erroneous and proximate to schism.

    Even some of the most dogmatic SVs would permit passive attendance (for funerals/weddings, etc.) ... and, as mentioned, Bishop Sanborn stated that NONE of even the most hard-core SVs require abjurations for people coming over from the Conciliar Church to Traditional Catholicism, since they realize that it's not a formally-declared schismatic body like, say, the Orthodox.  It's kind of in a Limbo state between Catholicism and being non-Catholic.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #28 on: November 05, 2024, 09:37:51 AM »
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    You fail to make the active/passive distinction.  If you have legitimate reason to attend (and absent any risk of scandal or corruption of your faith), one may PASSIVELY attend such Masses
    You are absolutely wrong.  Canon 1258 allows passive attendance at weddings/funerals.  It does not allow passive attendance at masses.  


    Secondly, the papal condemnation of attending doubtful masses also applies.  You cannot attend “probably valid” masses, under penalty of grave sin.  

    You (and many others) are falsely extending the allowance to masses, which never existed.  Canon Law clearly makes an allowance for the wedding/funeral service, which are COMPLETELY SEPARATE services from the actual mass.  

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Invited to an Indult wedding and mass
    « Reply #29 on: November 05, 2024, 10:15:29 AM »
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    I mean, I could be at a Catholic Unversity where we'd be studying non-Catholic religions (for legitimate purposes), and could show up at and attend some ceremony of theirs simply to observe it and take notes.  There can be various legitimate reason just to be "present", like a fly on the wall, provided that you're not actively participating in whatever they're doing.
    Sure, this could apply to non-catholic services.  As an isolated incident.


    But it would not apply to the Indult because a) it's a catholic rite, b) one is not there as some random person, as a one-time action of investigation.

    People who would go to an Indult mass for the bride/groom or a funeral are a) giving scandal, b) there's no "grave reason" to be there, c) are not there as a one-time action.

    What is the "grave reason" to go to an Indult mass?  So you don't "offend" somebody?  Sorry, that's not allowed by canon law.

    Quote
    Even some of the most dogmatic SVs would permit passive attendance (for funerals/weddings, etc.)
    Who cares?  Even some of the most dogmatic SV's think non-catholics can be saved.  They obviously think Indulters can be saved, too.  And so can new mass'ers.  The only people who *can't* be saved are Trads who go to 'una cuм' masses...which makes no sense...but that's another topic. 

    The point being, dogmatic SVs aren't 100% right on everything.